Transgender athletes back on the agenda

[ronrat]

Would havr liked to see Slobbos piece on this now in the bin,

[thesoretoothsayer]

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/a ... yictp.html

Interesting issue for women's sport.
Is a "woman" a biological fact or a social construct?

[stui magpie]

^

Bit from column A, but from Column B.

Women and men are chemically and physically different.

Women have 2 X chromosomes, men have an X and a Y.

A coroner can look at an adult skeleton and tell if it was a man or a woman to a reasonable degree of certainty, as the pelvic structure is different.

You can't change those things with surgery or hormone treatment, that's the biological fact part.

However, if someone believes they are the opposite gender, you can do hormone treatment and surgery so they can for the most part be as close to that gender as possible.

At 190cm and 100kg he's basically the same size as me, so against some of those flyweights in the AFLW, it would be interesting.

I don't think it's fair, but the body has put rules and measures in place, if someone meets them, fair enough.

[think positive]

Yeah I just read the article and it's not fair. I don't give a toss who that upsets. 'I haven't trained that way for three years'. What way? As a man training for football? Hormone treatment started two years ago. She transitioned at 25,when a male is at their physical peak, and had been trying to be an Olympianin another sport, so not a couch potato. 100kg. How many women weigh that much when fit? Lauren Jackson, bona Fida superstar, 196cm and 85 kg. She would be giving away 15kg. That's an awful lot of bulk. Even the big Maori girls I've played on were not that big. It's a massive massive advantage. Female weight lifters can get that big with pumped up muscles but they can't run, tackle or kick a bal with any agility. Sure, get the cut, take the meds, use the female toilet and be known as She, but what about the rights of the majority? Men are faster, heavier, stronger for the most part. What happens when She tackles some one and they don't get back up? Seriously, how much has Her body changed in 2 years from the previous 25? And unless you have played a contact sport competitively, don't bother, you have no idea.
I don't know what the answer is, but I do know it's not a level playing field. And everybody has rights. Even straight people.

[David]

I'll reiterate what I've argued before: it's not fair only in the sense that playing a skinny 18-year-old defender against Lance Franklin in the AFL is unfair. Otherwise, as in that scenario, hers is just one among a range of women's bodies. The only reason it would be unfair beyond that is if you didn't think that transgender women aren't 'real' women, a contention that the law and (increasingly) society do not agree with.

[Skids]

[Skids]

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/act-sport/transgender-act-footballer-hannah-mouncey-to-declare-for-the-aflw-draft-20170915-gyictp.html

Interesting issue for women's sport.
Is a "woman" a biological fact or a social construct?

Imagine, your 18 year old daughter, you know, a real girl. Has exceptional football ability .... anyway, she's good enough to play in, what I consider a farcical competition and gets drafted by a team.
She debuts in round one, starts in the middle and is tackled in the same way Grundy was suspended for by this 100kg 'woman' and gets stretchered off the ground.

Just think about that for a minute.

[think positive]

I'll reiterate what I've argued before: it's not fair only in the sense that playing a skinny 18-year-old defender against Lance Franklin in the AFL is unfair. Otherwise, as in that scenario, hers is just one among a range of women's bodies. The only reason it would be unfair beyond that is if you didn't think that transgender women aren't 'real' women, a contention that the law and (increasingly) society do not agree with.

i dont agree David. its far different.
just take a look at this:
http://www.newspix.com.au/Package/2KERYDW1GMUW
show me a 100kg women who is shaped like that?

men are built far differently, and just decreasing testosterone is not enough to change that. Hers will never ever be just one among a range of womens bodies. everything from tissue connectivity to tendons is different. how do CSIs tell a male skeleton from a females? because its different.

you can argue that its legal, and id have to agree because the law says that. But not all laws are fair, and this one is not fair to the females who have worked their butts off to get to the top of their sport.

[David]

Think a little bit more about what you're saying, TP: you consider it unfair that women train their entire lives to be at the top of their game, but then a transgender woman comes in and (in theory) dominates. Ask yourself this: is it fair that a guy built like Nic Naitanui got to walk in and dominate with his naturally tall and bulky physique while skinny white Anglo boys work their hardest for years only to still get brushed aside by him? And he really does brush other players aside when he's on a roll:

https://youtu.be/zQjZOFiQsW0

Yet, despite his physical dominance and extreme talent, Naitanui of course doesn't dominate every contest he's in, isn't unassailable and probably isn't even the best player in the game. That's the beauty of a team sport like Australian football: success is more than just about height and weight. Of course, there are still huge advantages to having certain attributes: Mason Cox and Majak Daw would have never got a game at VFL, let alone AFL, level if it hasn't been for their height and general athletic ability. But thankfully, the code can handle players of a range of shapes and sizes, even freakishly advantageous ones. AFLW is no different.

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/sport/a ... yictp.html

Interesting issue for women's sport.
Is a "woman" a biological fact or a social construct?

Imagine, your 18 year old daughter, you know, a real girl. Has exceptional football ability .... anyway, she's good enough to play in, what I consider a farcical competition and gets drafted by a team.
She debuts in round one, starts in the middle and is tackled in the same way Grundy was suspended for by this 100kg 'woman' and gets stretchered off the ground.

Just think about that for a minute.

Again, we permit such strength differentials in men's contact sports. Can you imagine, say, Josh Daicos being tackled by Dustin Martin? There is also inevitably some risk of injury in women's contact sports, including concussion and broken bones. The only reason you would consider that unacceptable is if you don't take women's sport seriously (which you clearly don't), or you dislike seeing women get hurt more than you dislike men getting hurt. If the latter were a serious consideration, the rules in women's AFL could be adjusted to reduce the risk of injury. But clearly female AFL players are made of sterner stuff than you are and are happy to play full-contact, with all the risk of injury that entails.

By the way, before breathtakingly hitting us with these hypotheticals, has it occurred to you that this woman has already played an entire season of women's football? In Canberra, no less, against players who undoubtedly were lighter and less fit than their AFLW counterparts. No reports of a mass body count to date; I'm sure you'd be the first to tell us if there was!

[thesoretoothsayer]

The only reason it would be unfair beyond that is if you didn't think that transgender women aren't 'real' women, a contention that the law and (increasingly) society do not agree with.

So what would be your definition of a woman?

[stui magpie]

I'll reiterate what I've argued before: it's not fair only in the sense that playing a skinny 18-year-old defender against Lance Franklin in the AFL is unfair. Otherwise, as in that scenario, hers is just one among a range of women's bodies. The only reason it would be unfair beyond that is if you didn't think that transgender women aren't 'real' women, a contention that the law and (increasingly) society do not agree with.

1. I think your comparisons against different body sizes in AFL players is a forced and irrelevant argument. The point was does a male athlete who transitions to a female retain an unfair physical advantage over other women and the answer appears to be yes.

2. Is a transgender woman a real woman? The law draws lines in the sand on many issues but can't change science. A Transgender woman does not have a females genetic or physiological makeup despite the chemical therapy so biologically, the answer is no. (and Biology is a science last time I checked) By law and society however, a transgender person has the right to be able to be recognised in accordance with their gender identity, not their biological gender, which means yes and I have no issue with that. In fact i am supportive of transgender people being supported both legally and socially.


Keep in mind, the argument about sport only works one way so it's not all about transgender. If a female athlete transitioned to be male and wanted to then compete against men after taking testosterone supplements, would anyone bat an eye?

[David]

[stui magpie]

Your argument is purely from the sociological side, biological is clear even if there are genetic anomalies, and your argument to 1. as to why it isn't unfair holds as much water as a colander IMHO.

[Skids]

I think the arguenents David puts forward simply reiterate the lunacy that is becoming so prevalent in todays society.

I really do feel terrified about the world my grandchildren are going to grow up in.

All I can do is hope that common sense prevails and the rise of the looney left is as short lived as the other moronic fads that have plagued the planet.

[stui magpie]

I don't feel terrified about the world the next generation will grow up in, it's going to be different but I have zero control of that and I've trained myself to not stress over things I can't control or influence.

It is what it is, it will be what it will be.

I have no issue with transgender people, as I said above.

My only issue is with transgender sports people.