Cricket !!

[Cam]

Two of the reasons why the great west indian side of the 80s was so great was because a) you were allowed to bowl 6 bouncers an over. b) Australian batsmen were hopeless at the pull and hook. When Australia started to get on top of them it was due to the genius of Warne and the ability to pull and hook genuine fast bowlers by Mark Waugh, Taylor, Slater & a young Ponting. Our AIS specifically concentrated on fixing our weakness in this area. Langer, Hayden & Co are products of that research.

I think the current Aussie side would've been able to deal with Viv & Co (and i do rate them very highly) because Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martyn & Gilchrist technically are better at playing fast short pitched bowling. Another major reason is that McGrath would have named Viv as his bunny or Greenidge, Haynes etc - and ego or not Viv is not as good as Tendulkar has been. McGrath is a fast bowler for the ages.

But the key weapon would have been Warne. West Indians could not handle genuine leg spin - see their great team's pitiful losses at the SCG tour after tour - i mean even A.B. took 10 one year bowling his left arm tweakers and turning away from the WI righties. i was at the G in jan 84 at a one dayer and saw Abdul Qadir make dicks out of them. Viv included. 5-50 or something. Warney would have had them for breakfast. Bowled Shane. Thank goodness he's recovered mostly from his ops - i can't stand McGill.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[Cam]

oh, in adelaide hayden will make only 12, caught hooking. he'll bounce back with 45 in the second innings though.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[JLC]

Dont make me laugh. The West Indian bowlers of the Eighties would make mince meat of the Aussie Top Order. Go and watch the spell that Shoaib Ahktar bowled in the recent Pakistan series. The West Indies were relentless pace from both ends. There was no let up.

Langer early in an innings is very susceptible to quick bowling.
Steve Waugh is out of form.
Lehmann is not proven.
Martyn is average.
Hayden is a gun.
Gilchrist is good.
Ponting is good.

jlc

Essendon 2000 premiers
2001 runners up
2002 fifth
2003 ????
The slide continues

[Abi]

I would contend the fact that Mark Waugh for instance tamed the might of the West Indian fast bowling machinery. He has never been a particularly strong hooker. He was lucky enough to come on to the test scene when their strength was well on the wane. Their production line declined due to the interest of their boys in basketball and other factors. But he has always been extremely susceptible to sustained quality fast bowling but has faced very little of it. And even recently against Pakistan was shown up badly by Shoab, yet could only average about 20 with Shoab missing a test and him having very little in support. As people point out the bowlers could bowl unlimited bounces and the batsmen were basically giving nothing to drive, but surely that highlights even more how lucky this team is to face timid bowlers with limited weaponry, surely it's a case to argue that the averages of the guys facing those 80s bowlers are worth a lot more in comparison to the contemporary ones. Also hard to imagine Viv would necessarily be McGrath's bunny. Glen relies a lot on putting it in the same spot and annoying batsmen out with his consistent length. Viv often made his own length and was proven against some great fast bowling. During his era every country had some great or very good fast bowlers and he didn't have the luxury of facing Sri Lanka or the likes of Zimbabwe and Bangladesh. Even Warne would have found it harder against guys who were prepared to do more than poke around at the crease, he struggles against the likes of Lara, the Indians and Malik who have been prepared to come down the pitch and take the attack to him. They are great bowlers though McGrath and Warne.

Pie fan forever

[foxy]

well said abi.

Cam i can't believe you're saying mark waugh is a good hooker and puller. come on. i seriously haven't seen play him a pull or hook for YEARS. surely he's one of those guys who REALLY would've struggled against top-line fast bowling (if he ever faced it). why do you think he's so well-known for his leg-side play? because the fast bowlers he faced throughout the 90's consistently bowled crap deliveries onto his pads.

as i say, ponting, gilchrist, and hayden would've been best placed to face the best west indian fast bowlers. they all love hooking and pulling - ponting in particular, who pulls and hooks like he's doing ballet.

[foxy]

and ummm i think viv would've been able to figure out glenn mcgrath, don't worry. not hard to figure out a guy who's bowled short of a length outside off stump his entire career.

[Abi]

And how would some of the current guys have gone without helmets?Neither Waugh is adept at the hook. And remember neither, despite their records have been prepared to bat at number three.

Pie fan forever

[Abi]

Exactly Foxy McGrath doesn't put them on the stumps, Viv actually said recently he may have struggled with him in his face all day.

Pie fan forever

[Cam]

i disagree. Do you rate Curtly Ambrose and Courtney Walsh (and perhaps ian bishop when he wasnt injured) any less of bowlers than the marshalls,garners,holdings? come on. mark waugh early on in his career was a good hooker and puller. i have video of him in 93? and boony taking ambrose, bishop and walsh apart. he stopped doing the shot as he got older (not much older mind you) which was a shame because they reason i taped him was because as in all his shots his technique was perfect. a good coaching tape. if he had had steves concentration he would have been incredible.

and don't give me any crap about warne. EVERY leg spinner in the world made a mess of the great windie sides. warne is the greatest legspinner in history. his variety would have left many of them wondering what hit em. and gilchrist would have had alot more stumpings.

here's one for you. if rod marsh was playing for say, NSW, right now and was 29, would he be playing instead of gilly? what if healy was playing as well?

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[This message has been edited by Cam (edited 21 November 2002).]

[Joel]

I think we are all going to have to agree to disgaree. LOL, because no one is going to change their position, no matter how how we try to do so.

JDF

"We've never quit, and we won't."

[JLC]

Bishop and Walsh were not as intimidating as Ambrose Garner and Marshall or Holding.

jlc

Essendon 2000 premiers
2001 runners up
2002 fifth
2003 ????
The slide continues

[Abi]

Walsh couldn't get a gig in the halcyon days of their fast bowlers. Bishop's star was a brief shining one, he succumbed to injury. All apart from Ambrose were on the wane when Mark W arrived on the scene and he was Curtly's bunny generally, even when Ambrose was virtually over the hill, even in one-day, bastardised cricket.

Pie fan forever

[JLC]

Walsh was good because of his longevity and durability.

jlc

Essendon 2000 premiers
2001 runners up
2002 fifth
2003 ????
The slide continues

[Cam]

Mark Waugh averaged 41.81 over his career and 41.28 vs WI

Walsh first played in 84/85 5 test series vs australia, and one test against nz and took 16 wickets @ 31.68. he was one of the four preferred quicks for those tours. the others were marshall, garner & holding. other members of the team in australia were greenidge, haynes, richards, richardson, lloyd, gomes, dujon & harper.

had some injuries in 85/86 but played one test against england where he took 5/74 including the wickets of Gooch, Gower & Lamb. His teammates included marshall, garner, greenidge, haynes, richards, gomes & richardson

86/87 they toured pakistan & nz. he took 24 wickets in 6 matches at 20.87. this was a different team with only marshall remaining with viv, richie rich, greenidge, haynes, gomes & dujon.

the fact that holding, garner & croft were 9 years older than him and andy roberts 11 probably gives a hint as to why courtney didnt play much with them.

Hard at it. The Collingwood way.

[This message has been edited by Cam (edited 21 November 2002).]

[Abi]

Walsh never had the pace or the venom of the more vaunted members of that quartet but did possess a good bouncer. Would always be rated below them and his average tended to be mid twenties from memory, not the low twenties of the greats.

Pie fan forever