Russian invasion of Ukraine

[What'sinaname]

Are you really astonished? Given their stance on these issues, I'd say MTTM is a socialist / communist, or at the very least, an anti-capitalist.

There's nothing wrong with that. We all are free to be who we want to be.

I don't assess the merits of what someone says on the basis of their supposed branding and team colours. That's what footy's for.

Needless to say, under your new utopian mores, murderous nutcases are also free to be what they want. Oppressive kleptocrats? Just more people freely being what they want. Now we've solved the fundamental moral problem, let's hit the dance floor and boogie!

Or is only the adored Putin, that ideal father figure of Machiavellians and those who can't stand on their own two feet, allowed to be what he wants? To hell with Ukrainians; let's bask in Vlad the Great's self-satisfaction!

There is nothing odd about your fundamentalist self aligning with M2M's fundamentalist self, despite it greatly limiting you both. The rest of us are searching for adult solutions that allow as many people as possible to thrive, yet keep bumping into this sort of rot in between for some reason.

So if you'e not astonished, stop pretending to be astonished.

[What'sinaname]

Are you really astonished? Given their stance on these issues, I'd say MTTM is a socialist / communist, or at the very least, an anti-capitalist.

There's nothing wrong with that. We all are free to be who we want to be.

Never thought I would say this, but WIAN, you have understood what I have written far more than PTID.

While i oppose everything you write, in this instance you have shown far more political perception than our self appointed moral and political authority, PTID

Thanks!

[Magpietothemax]

There is nothing odd about your fundamentalist self aligning with M2M's fundamentalist self, despite it greatly limiting you both. The rest of us are searching for adult solutions that allow as many people as possible to thrive, yet keep bumping into this sort of rot in between for some reason.

I couldn't care less what kind of "adult solutions" you think you are searching for, (X rated or otherwise) just dont attribute to me views that I don't have and, in fact, have consistently made clear that I do not have. Because that is lying, pure and simple, and is devoid of any integrity.

[pietillidie]

Are you really astonished? Given their stance on these issues, I'd say MTTM is a socialist / communist, or at the very least, an anti-capitalist.

There's nothing wrong with that. We all are free to be who we want to be.

I don't assess the merits of what someone says on the basis of their supposed branding and team colours. That's what footy's for.

Needless to say, under your new utopian mores, murderous nutcases are also free to be what they want. Oppressive kleptocrats? Just more people freely being what they want. Now we've solved the fundamental moral problem, let's hit the dance floor and boogie!

Or is only the adored Putin, that ideal father figure of Machiavellians and those who can't stand on their own two feet, allowed to be what he wants? To hell with Ukrainians; let's bask in Vlad the Great's self-satisfaction!

There is nothing odd about your fundamentalist self aligning with M2M's fundamentalist self, despite it greatly limiting you both. The rest of us are searching for adult solutions that allow as many people as possible to thrive, yet keep bumping into this sort of rot in between for some reason.

So if you'e not astonished, stop pretending to be astonished.

The fact your need for control extends to fantasising that you know what can and can't or should and shouldn't astonish others is not at all surprising. That's the defining essence of fundamentalist psychiatry.

But it's still astonishing watching people live in such obvious contradiction, like the devout Christian who votes for Trump. They can't even hear themselves speak anymore; the satirical justifications roll off the tongue without even the slightest hint of irony.

The need for the approval of imaginary father figure in the sky, or of Vlad or Donald or of the parishioners of the Church of Socialism, overrides all other earthly considerations. That is still an astonishing thought. It's like watching people sitting in prison, even though they have the key and can walk out the door anytime.

[pietillidie]

There is nothing odd about your fundamentalist self aligning with M2M's fundamentalist self, despite it greatly limiting you both. The rest of us are searching for adult solutions that allow as many people as possible to thrive, yet keep bumping into this sort of rot in between for some reason.

I couldn't care less what kind of "adult solutions" you think you are searching for, (X rated or otherwise) just dont attribute to me views that I don't have and, in fact, have consistently made clear that I do not have. Because that is lying, pure and simple, and is devoid of any integrity.

No, you're lying to yourself. Your primary drive is not the betterment of others, but rather proving your righteousness to the voice of doubt in your head. That's why fundamentalist psychiatry is so extraordinarily solipsistic and behaviourally contradictory, and can even sometimes look like psychopathy, being essentially a vulnerable narcissism in disguise.

I know you have empathy and have a normal sense of fear; this does show, but never at the expense of the scaffolding propping up the vulnerable self. The task of silencing that inner voice ultimately has to override every other instinct, leaving you to construct an god-ugly edifice of self-justification. That's why 9/10ths of the time you're talking about evil America and the hapless Putin's hand being forced, not what Ukrainians want. That's the ruse; not caring by deflecting and ignoring, leaving you plausible deniability so you can claim that the other person is misrepresenting you. This sort of 'crowding out' is the oldest far-left trick in the book; some of us didn't come down in the last shower.

So, no, there's no serious righteousness and noble grappling in it except by convenience or chance; everything ultimately has to first fit this juvenile model of the world that gave you hope as a teenager. That's the scope of possibility. And nothing will stand in the way; not what Ukrainians desire for themselves; not the stability of Europe and in turn the global economy; not the half of Israel that opposes Nutteryahu trapped in a received culture; not people in government holding their nose yet working assiduously to nudge things in a better direction when and where they can; not the reality of the productive output needed to sustain society without it undergoing distress; not the real consequences of delusional policy; and certainly not an unfitness in knowledge and experience that ought to give pause. Nothing.

Lexit was a classic example of far-left and far-right fundamentalism fusing into a single policy prescription. A horribly destructive and monumentally costly idea was supported by dimwitted Corbynists from the left to demonstrate not their expertise, nor their management experience, understanding of economics, and risk management modelling. But to demonstrate their authentic righteousness to the like-minded and father figures in their heads, and for many, masking a vulnerable narcissistic rage that secretly wanted to wreck things.

No thought about its implications for others and the fact that in reality it would worsen budgets and justify further service cuts. No notion that it might weaken a crucial, stabilising union on the most war-torn continent in history. No fear that it might drive off capital, pressure investment and worsen productivity, the ultimate arbiter of economic return. Just lines and lines of now laughable justification in aid of the self.

I can still vividly remember reading psychiatrist M. Scott Peck's classic The People of the Lie at university, where he argued that both extreme and pedestrian evil are ultimately rooted in a fundamental lie to the self, often covered with a glossy veneer of righteousness. I think it helped innoculate me from fundamentalism at an impressionable moment, and ought to be required reading for the far left and far right alike.

And yes, I do feel sorry for people wearing this burden. The problem is, the destruction can be so great, and affect so many people, that the aetiology of the affliction is for another day.

[Magpietothemax]

^ I will ignore this absurd diatribe except to say: how can you possibly know that "I am lying to myself" ?? Where is your evidence?
However, I can say, with abundant objective evidence, that with your claims that I support Putin, you are lying not merely to yourself, but to everyone on this board who happens to read your slanderous nonsense.

[pietillidie]

^You bolster Putin; that's just reality, and the effective end of your efforts. You don't want to, just as you don't want to diminish Ukrainians. But your desire to sate the vulnerable self is far stronger than either of those things, so it pushes Ukrainians down the queue, deplatforming them and platforming Putin in the process, as you clamour above all for your narrative of self to be heard.

Like Trump, Putin loves far leftists; positively adores them for helping consolidate his power by spreading his talking points. The finger of blame has turned upon itself, to quote Crowded House.

Now, it doesn't have to be that way. You can deprioritise yourself, tell that voice within to take a hike, and start prioritising Ukrainian and regional voices instead. It might be at some point they desire a different approach; that's not our call. It might be that the risk blows out beyond the known. It might be that the Great Satan starts doing idiotic things as it has done historically. Those possibilities remain on the table in a realistic model that prioritises both the victim and the greater good, and keeps an eye on that equation alone. But there's no evidence for that at this stage, and no one buys Bush/Cheney-style WMD justifications.

If you were on a less prone, less self-absorbed, more disciplined wavelength, you'd be very good at assessing the parties and the risk sensibly. And I'd be first to canvass your views.

Anyhow, that aside, I just saw this free online webinar, and you were the first person I thought of who would likely appreciate it: https://worldbeyondwar.org/gaza-and-ukr ... o-problem/

[stui magpie]

^

Ptiddy, I humbly suggest you grab a beer or go for a walk.

We both know, clearly, that MTTM has a particular political belief system that obviously influences how they view world affairs and political situations. Regardless of what you and I think of that belief system, they're free to hold it and espouse their opinions as long as that causes no harm to others.

As you well know, when you ridicule a persons opinion, all you do is harden their resolve. I've been guilty of psycho analysing people's thought process, something I regret and that is counter productive.

My suggestion, if you choose to accept it, is let MTTM have their opinions and play the ball not the person. You won't change their political view, you can challenge their opinions on specific situations.

{climbs down off soap box and lets himself out}

[pietillidie]

^On the beer/walk we are in full agreement!

Belief systems do change, though. And of course there's also the problem that I'm as free as anyone to express my views. One of the most interesting things is the space carved out for the extreme to express their views with all manner of force, but not for people to question their views with any force, let alone commensurate force. It's like an affirmative action but without evidence of disadvantage.

For the record, just because people hold extreme views doesn't mean they hold them for good reason. You can see this in the special dispensations carved out for Trump as an lunatic representative of the angry; anyone else would be removed from running for saying or doing any of the things he does on any given day. Since when did rage or extremism become their own justification, no further questions required? Even good people can have some pretty destructive flaws that they, and indeed the rest of us, could do without. I'm not talking mistakes or bad spells; those afflict us all. I mean sustained destructive behaviours.

There's certainly nothing free about imposing the cost of highly negligent and careless judgement on others. Most everyday matters are neither here nor there, but the really big things warrant high expectations. Think of the insanely massive costs of Iraq, global warming denial and Brexit; there was ample information for good judgement on these, or at least sensible risk management, with space to spare for discussion about some of the details, such as how to best phase out which fossil fuels when and where.

(You could potentially add the GFC, which wouldn't have occurred with sane financial regulations. But I separate it somewhat as it was only put to people in the US at the ballot box as a clear GOP ideology, and the field of finance is so complex it's hard for people to assess at the best of times. Similarly with the pandemic, as the risk management wasn't put to people, and I think people assumed these things were being adequately monitored, even though they did vote for conservative governments who gutted funding and risk management buffers generally, with Trump dismantling pandemic early warning buffers very openly in the US.)

Note, I don't even have a settled position on Ukraine, being ready to adjust with the risk, whether from Russia or the US, and the Ukrainian desire to stay in the fight.

Unfortunately, in all of these cases, good judgement is well within people's reach, at least to get it right enough, or at worst not hopelessly wrong. But people still get them hopelessly wrong, presumably on the basis of self-serving desire. That inability to offset the self,even somewhat, is presumably the fundamental cause; no one anywhere was forced to take a reckless, careless position on these things.

Now, it might be that that selfishness is biologically fixed. That people are inherently so narcissistic that they cannot but twist and distort reality such that even a professed Christian can claim Trump is the lord's handpicked representative. Or, maybe they're just misanthropic A-holes. Or just talking without thinking. It's hard to tell sometimes.

But I don't buy that we're just clueless apes who can't see beyond the next impulse, because we all show capacity for good judgement when it suits. Not expecting that from each other is bitter pill to swallow and some serious random chaos and massive cost we're left to wear without hope.

Anyhow, carry on. I will let it go again. M2M, I know leftists well for historical reasons, hence pushing you periodically. I do think you're smart, decent and capable, just trapped in outdated self-supports. Anyhow, because far-left ideas lack the backing of billionaires, they're much less problematic than far-right ideas.

[Culprit]

Russia is upset Civilians killed in Sevastopol. It seems they are the only ones allowed to kill civilians in that conflict.

[Magpietothemax]

Russia is upset Civilians killed in Sevastopol. It seems they are the only ones allowed to kill civilians in that conflict.

Putin is not concerned about how many Russian civilians are killed. Just like Zelensky, civilians, conscripts to him are just cannon fodder to be expended freely in defence of their class interests.
What he cares about however is that the US and NATO are providing Ukraine with the weaponry necessary to strike targets within Russia's territory and therefore potentially undermine his government.
He made clear in his statement after the strike on Sevastopol that he holds the US responsible for the attack on Sevastopol just as much as the Zelensky regime because:
a) the US provided Zelensky with the required missiles
b) the US, with surveillance drones and satellites, provided the Ukrainian military with the necessary co-ordinates to direct the strike.
Obvious conclusion: this is a proxy war being conducted by the US/NATO against Russia.
In the same statement, Putin declared that there would inevitably be a response by Russia against the US at some time in the future in retaliation.
If anyone here cannot see the danger of this spiralling into nuclear war, then they need to either get their vision checked, or more likely, get their cognitive abilities checked.

[Magpietothemax]

NATO summit coming up.
Stay tuned for more NATO escalation of the war in Ukraine.

[pietillidie]

Kyiv Mayor Vitaliy Klitschko has either taken too many punches, or contrary Putin's fawning acolytes and far-left/far-right boosters, he represents the Ukrainian view. Poor Vlad, forced to bomb the capital city and children's hospitals because of the Great Satan.

https://news.sky.com/video/at-least-36- ... r-13175250

[Magpietothemax]

Kyiv Mayor Vitaliy Klitschko has either taken too many punches, or contrary Putin's fawning acolytes and far-left/far-right boosters, he represents the Ukrainian view. Poor Vlad, forced to bomb the capital city and children's hospitals because of the Great Satan.

https://news.sky.com/video/at-least-36- ... r-13175250

Criminal that Putin has bombed a chldren's hospital in Ukraine.
Media has every right to highlight this atrocity.... but why doesnt it highlightwith the same degree of intensity the bombings of hospitals and schools in Gaza...

[Magpietothemax]

This thread appears to have fallen asleep.
But what do others make of the fact that the Ukrainian army, directed and armed by NATO, is now invading Russian territory...in Kursk.
German tanks, back on the scene where they were in 1943, in the last desperate attempt of the Nazi regime to defeat the Red Army.
Only times have changed, and now NATO weaponry, being transported by its Ukrainian proxies, now threaten the territory of a nuclear armed power.
First time in history that US weaponry has been utilised on the territory of a nuclear armed opponent.