Transgender athletes back on the agenda

[stui magpie]

@David, I read that article, it is mainly about community level sport participation, not elite individual sport where money and prestige is on the line.

It seems there is not a lot of elite female athletes who want to go on the record with any objections for fear of being called TERF and subjected to harrassment.

Maybe look at it from a different persepctive, how many current elite female athletes, in individual sports, have come out publically in support of Transgender athletes? You may find a few but in general I'd suggest the silence is deafening.

Interesting side point for those who think that Biology is a social construct.

No woman has ever broken the 4 minute mile. The current female record is 4m 14s

Only a few months ago, a 16 year old Canberra school boy ran 3m 54s to become one of the youngest high school boys to break the 4 m mile.

[nomadjack]

Does anyone think biology is a social construct Stui? I don't know on what basis they could make that claim?

[David]

^ Yep, and I'm not aware of any serious transgender advocates who make that claim either.

Totally understand that some athletes would rather keep their heads down than get involved in a political debate, but it wouldn't be that hard to do an anonymous survey of professional sportswomen. Kind of surprised there hasn't been one (or if there has been, it wasn't coming up in my Google searches, at any rate).

[stui magpie]

When I was google searching for elite female athletes opinions on transgender participation, a whole lot of extraneous stuff came up, including some very pro-trans sites and articles which used the statements that biology is just a social construct. That's what prompted me.

I also searched that "Let women speak" movement to see what they're about, which was interesting. There's clearly a number or women (how large I have NFI) who feel that women having to share female spaces with (what they view as ) Men in a dress, is an infringement on them and their rights as women.

Pro Trans activists treat these views (and the people who hold them) with contempt and take the "All In" approach that the gender someone identifies with is their gender and that's it.

Stuck in the middle are the Trans people, a small number of people who just (in the vast majority) want to live their lives and be accepted as a person first and as the gender they identify with and not feel attacked or disparaged.

The only thing I know is that throwing insults at people will never change their minds, it just quiets their voice whereas measured calm discussion and the ability to see others perspectives has a chance.

[think positive]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-24/world-athletics-tightens-transgender-dsd-athlete-rules/102139298

So no athlete who has experienced even past of puberty as a male will be allowed to compete at the elite level against women.

Interesting quote.

A scientific panel found that even after reducing their testosterone levels through medication, transgender women still had a significant advantage.

They's also updated the rules for DSD athletes about maximum testosterone levels.

I've come to the realisation that, as a male, my opinion on this subject is irrelevant. If the majority of female athletes do not want to compete against biological male athletes, that should be the end of it. If there are other sporting organisations where the majority of women are comfortable to compete against biological men, that's fine too.

That's exactly what i have argued since day 1.


As for suvey's David, take a look at any individual circumstance, and read the press around it. The answer is pretty obvious.

It's also hard to speak out, because the world just loves to come at you when you do.

As a woman who has played a shitload of sport in different fields, and as a mother of daughters, one who competes weekly, and is a PE teacher, i have a very different perspective to a lot here. my kids went to a girls school because girls learn better without boys around, and my daughter at a mixed sex public school is discovering that a lot of girls wont play sport because they dont want the boys to laugh at them. These girls more than anyone, need sport. they should be encouraged and be given an equal chance. they dont need another reason to stand on the side lines.



and well said Stu.

[David]

I appreciate your opinion as someone who's deeply involved with amateur sport, but if the Monash survey is anything to go by then it does seem like most amateur female athletes take the opposite view to yours. (It may well be, as discussed above, that professional sportswomen's views are different.)

There's also a strong generational aspect to this. My impression is that Gen Zs are much more likely to be accepting of transgender people and, by extension, I would imagine, to not see trans girls' participation in sport at school as unfair or, more extreme still, as a reason to sideline themselves. It would be good to see actual data on this, but I would be very surprised if the attitude you're suggesting is actually all that prevalent among the average female high school population. If anything, it may be that inclusion makes them feel more, not less, comfortable participating. One shouldn't discount the effect of changing social norms on these things.

[What'sinaname]

It's good that Gen Z's aren't making the decisions then. And sometimes, social norms conflict with professional sport. Case in point, the use of, so called, recreational drugs.

Also, this is not about participation or acceptance. It's about fairness.

[David]

[stui magpie]

Gen Z will have their time. Until then, Sport is about the only place where sexual discrimination actively takes place and is supported by women.

[What'sinaname]

Gen Z will have their time. Until then, Sport is about the only place where sexual discrimination actively takes place and is supported by women.

Gen Z sports won't have winners or loser, just participants who are lauded for just participating.

[stui magpie]

^

Yeah, Nah. There will always be things like the Olympics and world championships where there's winners and losers. Competitive sport will go on and Gen Z and future generations will throw up enough competitive people to ensure it continues.

Kids are naturally competitive. They'll tolerate the wank of not recording scores but they know who won.

[David]

Doesn't this whole "participation trophy" thing go back to the '90s? In which case the "participation generation" / snowflakes / etc. would be pushing 40 or older by now. People sometimes forget how old millennials actually are.

[stui magpie]

Nah, the whole "not keeping score" or Participation generation is more recent than that.

That's not to say that the parents of the current generation of snowflakes aren't in their 40's, odds are that they are.

[Skids]

My mate Ryan is transgenger. He's a weapon at Brazilian Jujitsu, trains and kicks the shit out of most blokes.

You've missed the point of this argument and decision Skids.

I don't really care, I was just sayin'

[think positive]

I appreciate your opinion as someone who's deeply involved with amateur sport, but if the Monash survey is anything to go by then it does seem like most amateur female athletes take the opposite view to yours. (It may well be, as discussed above, that professional sportswomen's views are different.)

There's also a strong generational aspect to this. My impression is that Gen Zs are much more likely to be accepting of transgender people and, by extension, I would imagine, to not see trans girls' participation in sport at school as unfair or, more extreme still, as a reason to sideline themselves. It would be good to see actual data on this, but I would be very surprised if the attitude you're suggesting is actually all that prevalent among the average female high school population. If anything, it may be that inclusion makes them feel more, not less, comfortable participating. One shouldn't discount the effect of changing social norms on these things.

my sister is a 2 time Australian Olympian, 2 time Commonwealth games medallist, played in world championships, and was at the time the only westerner ever to be invited to train with the Chinese team in China, which She did for 3 months. Also my daughter has been paid to play netball, that enough for you? They totally agree with me. The thing you dont get, and it goes to your next paragraph too, is that if Girls cannot compete on a FAIR playing field when they are amateurs they may not bother, and then there will be a dirth of Female Pro athletes. Just as with AFL it all starts in the little leagues.

And im sure that inclusion is good for Trans people, but not at the expensive of the entire Female population. Monash. From what little i know by my kids applications, its not a dominant sports uni, try doing the same at Vic Uni. And again, its hard for people to say what they think, because quick as a damn flash some dickhead wet behind the ears generation Zer will come in with a derogatory label.

Your a man, and the father of a son, I did a lot of research, and also used my own not so great experiences at school, and both my kids thank me for putting them through an all girls high school. Not sure what you know about the average female high school population TBH.

ITS ABOUT FAIR! Nothing more nothing less, and as per Stuis quote, competing against trans male to female is as fair as competing against someone taking peds.

Trans people are a minority, and yes minorities should be looked after, but not at the expense of half the world's population. Let them form their own leagues, or let them play sports, and there are more than a few, where the sexes compete against each other anyway.