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inxs88 wrote:I don't see him playing back purely because when the ball hits the ground, he has no second effort. My attitude to new recruits is to give them the "benefit of the doubt" until they let me down. I do remember the outcry when Travis Varcoe joined the Pies whereby many of us thought he was a flaky, outside player with questionable upside. He proved the opposite.
Purely for structure, I had McStay starting his career at Collingwood as a defender but the likely addition of Frampton suggests Billy will do his pre season amongst the defenders and McStay with the forwards.
Krueger becomes the wild card amongst that lot because he’s easily the most athletically gifted of the three of them. That just leaves the unknown of whether he can make his mark as an AFL footballer or not.
Key defender options of Moore, Frampton and Dean and key forward options of McStay, Krueger and Miochek at least gives us some coverage and competition for spots. Something we didn’t have by about round six in 2022.
We can all argue about the quality of what’s coming in but when you don’t have the money or the two first rounders to burn for an A grade trade, then you simply make the best of a less than perfect situation.
Last edited by Pies2016 on Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Over the years, the more things change the more things stay the same at Nicks. I will guarantee you that if Collingwood go out and get players like McStay and Hill, a few posters here would invariably say that they are duds, way past their best, add nothing to the team etc etc. If we don’t go after players, the other half of posters will be whinging and lamenting how Collingwood never go after available players who could strengthen our team and benefit Collingwood etc etc. it’s a no win situation for the club. In my opinion, if the club rates these players and think they will make a difference to the team, it’s a total winning move. Given how agonisingly close we came to making the GF, I totally support any recruiting that will fill gaps and make us that much better than we were this year.
I term the current Collingwood attack based strategy “Unceasing Waves” like on a stormy and windy day with rough seas. A Perfect Storm
lazzadesilva wrote:Over the years, the more things change the more things stay the same at Nicks. I will guarantee you that if Collingwood go out and get players like McStay and Hill, a few posters here would invariably say that they are duds, way past their best, add nothing to the team etc etc. If we don’t go after players, the other half of posters will be whinging and lamenting how Collingwood never go after available players who could strengthen our team and benefit Collingwood etc etc. it’s a no win situation for the club. In my opinion, if the club rates these players and think they will make a difference to the team, it’s a total winning move. Given how agonisingly close we came to making the GF, I totally support any recruiting that will fill gaps and make us that much better than we were this year.
Johnno75 wrote:After watching Stengle carving it up in a GF and what people were saying about him 12 months ago let’s just wait and see on McStay.
So true. Think of some of the other players we acquired (derided by many) which turned into much better footballers at Collingwood: Shane Wakelin, James Clement, Paul Medhurst, Jeremy Howe, to name a few. Yes, there have been some flops, but let's make these players feel welcome and provide an environment where their time at Collingwood will be an elevation of their careers.
Howe didn't really become a better player at all, he just changed positions. He was originally brought in as a winger / half forward who would average 20 possessions and two goals. After a week or two, Buckley realised this would never happen and moved him into a much easier position. Of the others, I'd say Clement was really the only one who noticeably upped his game. Wakelin was basically who he always was, but playing in a better defensive structure and Medders was Medders outside of a flukey good 2008.
No, it is not. McStay has been playing in about the most favourable environment imaginable and still not producing that much. He's not going to get better at Collingwood and he's not going to improve as he gets older (he's 27 now). I know we need a key forward, but this is not the move.
I don't see how we wouldn't be better off just keeping Grundy (apparently we'll be paying him about $300K even if he leaves, so we're not saving money) and playing Cameron as the second ruck / resting forward. It's tough on Cox, but he has 1 year max left in him anyway, and then spending money on someone who's actually good (or giving Henry another year).
Another option is getting a key defender (who are much easier to find) and giving Darcy Moore another go in the forward line. I think he'd do much better in the current game plan than in the incredibly slow play Buckley years and he's a better player now to boot. My only concern is his body might not be up to it e.g. Ben Reid.
rosspies wrote:Someone give me some qualifying reasons how he makes us better. Who does he replace from our prelim team?
Grundy is gone 100%. He can ruck when the ball goes forward. Mihocek and Cox getting past their prime. He’s a Swingman if a tall back gets injured. The price is what most people are questioning. It’s a good pick up.
Grundy is only "gone 100%" because we're trying to move him. He doesn't *have* to be gone.
If we get McStay we're not going to save money and will be in the exact same position next year, i.e. looking for a tall forward.
Howe etc became better players whatever the case - better structure, new position etc.
Alternatively, if the point is Collingwood’s environment can improve you - it could be argued the current environment (limited sample size) is one of the best.
McStay could improve in a new position say playing a Josh Jenkins role. We simply do not have more than one or two players of that size on our list. Is McStay Cameron or Lynch? No. The Kings are not on the market.
I am going to assume that Wright, Bolton, Leppitsch and McCrae had a plan for this list. That they aren’t wavering from just because we made a prelim. I also assume they see something in McStay that fits that plan that we are not aware of and they have forgotten more about football than I know.
Yes we still need a tall forward - I hope we wheel and deal to be able to draft one. And like De Koning we wish that player show early promise.
As for Grundy being a swap for McStay and we are still paying $900k a year you would think is ludicrous. The aforementioned GM and coaches are not that stupid. It is all we can see from the outside. I thought at least one person in the media might have looked for logic other than Grade 2 maths 900 - (600 + 300) = Zero net gain (a net loss even as a AA Magpie in the hand is worth… you get the idea).
As for Darcy Moore being a Ben Reid injury type it’s like saying you don’t trust Maynard because of his first 2 years at Collingwood. He is not Jack Crisp but certainly not Ben Reid. After his initial hamstring issues, then again in 2018 (where he trained the house down prior to the GF) it has been a PCL injury in 2021 which is a collision injury so hard to file in ‘prone’ category.
Sum Of Their Parts -
Concept in holism related to the idea that the total effectiveness of a group of things each interacting with one another is different or greater than their effectiveness when acting in isolation from one another.
Last edited by Magpie Russ on Sun Sep 25, 2022 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rosspies wrote:Someone give me some qualifying reasons how he makes us better. Who does he replace from our prelim team?
Grundy is gone 100%. He can ruck when the ball goes forward. Mihocek and Cox getting past their prime. He’s a Swingman if a tall back gets injured. The price is what most people are questioning. It’s a good pick up.
Grundy is only "gone 100%" because we're trying to move him. He doesn't *have* to be gone.
If we get McStay we're not going to save money and will be in the exact same position next year, i.e. looking for a tall forward.
The advantage is getting a significant pick from the Grundy trade. Seeing that we pay his wages we should be getting a great pick.
There is talk that we may not get a great pick but that would only be if we dont pay a significant part of his wages.
He is in the elite bracket and AA a couple times I think, so it would be highway robbery if we dont get a top 10 pick at least, so we wont be in the exact same position. McStay had a good later part of the year and he is a way better mark overhead than Grundy. IMHO
Melbourne are apparently negotiating a “suitable trade that reflects his worth”.
Then there is the new world of trading…
We want 5 million off our books for some long term strategic decision I assume. Someone has to take him.
Cf
Gold Coast is offering up Bowes with Pick 7! You are getting a player and pick 7 for nothing you have to cough up the salary cap space.
Will Brodie was traded to Fremantle with pick 19. Not ‘for’ ‘with’.
Fiorini will likely come to Collingwood with a pick. We just need to take on his salary ($600k which we will apportion over two years - good deal).
So we could get rid off Grundy, get nothing in return but! have a 5 million over the next 5 years to offer to a Cameron/Lynch type.
Instead we are getting $3.5 million off our books and ‘buying’ a first round pick for $300k a year over 5 years.
The bottom line is McCrae and Wright came in with a vision of where we need to be in 5 years. Carrying Brown brother type players on our list and having burgeoning salary cap is not part of that vision.
If I read this correctly we are improving our list overall, maybe not at the top-end yet!, but upgrades across the middle and lower tier and we are following up on the 2020 clear out.
Further the salary cap will go up so we will be ready.
The AFL has just officially allowed salary cap dumps (
^
I don't think Collingwood is a better environment than Brisbane, not for a key forward anyway. Seriously, he had the ball coming down at lightning speed into an open 50. He's not getting that here.
And if you think Darcy can hold up physically to playing in the forward line then play him there and recruit a key defender. He's got the talent.
And if there's nobody on the market better than McStay, we should stay out of the market, not pay overs for the best of a really bad bunch.
And I still don't get why everyone is so gung ho to get rid of Grundy. Yes, he's a bit overpaid, but he's at least a net positive who improves us (I think Cameron got exposed a bit as a full time ruck as the season went on) which I don't think McStay does.
Duff Soviet Union wrote: And I still don't get why everyone is so gung ho to get rid of Grundy. Yes, he's a bit overpaid, but he's at least a net positive who improves us (I think Cameron got exposed a bit as a full time ruck as the season went on) which I don't think McStay does.
I think it’s all too late to do anything else other than to put up with trades the club has engineered but it is obvious that some knowledgeable posters on Nick’s are don’t want Grundy gone and don’t want McStay to come. I’m wracking my brains to remember the last time posters were so apathetic and disinterested in a player like McStay coming to Collingwood. If we are ever setting up a player for failure, it is McStay. I have no idea how this trade will end up but it is definitely not giving me the impression that it will benefit Collingwood on a huge level. I almost hope it falls through
I term the current Collingwood attack based strategy “Unceasing Waves” like on a stormy and windy day with rough seas. A Perfect Storm
