Chinese imperialism and future Australian sovereignty

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pietillidie
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Post by pietillidie »

Tannin wrote:Watch them pull their heads in once Biden takes over and (a) puts some professionals in charge and (b) restores some significant unity and trust and cooperation back into international relations.
That's pretty much what I'm saying, but it is also reflected in the rhetoric.

Rhetoric matters insofar as it excites and arouses populist fist wavers, which in turn impacts politics. Extremists such as Trump excite extremists elsewhere, both fuelling pitchforked mobs, which in turn drag mainstream politics into their cesspit of hysteria and nationalism, which in turns destabilises the polity.
Last edited by pietillidie on Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stui magpie
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Post by stui magpie »

pietillidie wrote:
stui magpie wrote:Xi is not just reflecting Trump, that's unhinged.
How do you know? What's your basis for disagreeing? Have you been tracking the rhetoric?

Why did Chinese diplomatic tone turn puerile when Trump came along? Why did Twitter posts suddenly start mirroring Western social media rhetorical nonsense in (near) native English? Why does this rhetoric deviate so radically from traditional Chinese diplomatic rhetoric?

Donald Trump is the one who is unhinged. Xi is far more strategic. China now has a returning generation very well educated in Western rhetoric and PR. And Donald Trump is the perfect cover for bellicosity.
My basis for disagreeing is that my opinion is as good as yours as your anti Trump bias invalidates any local knowledge you may have gained.

There's multiple reasons why Xi and China are behaving the way they are, you just picked the one you like the most.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
pietillidie
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Post by pietillidie »

stui magpie wrote:
pietillidie wrote:
stui magpie wrote:Xi is not just reflecting Trump, that's unhinged.
How do you know? What's your basis for disagreeing? Have you been tracking the rhetoric?

Why did Chinese diplomatic tone turn puerile when Trump came along? Why did Twitter posts suddenly start mirroring Western social media rhetorical nonsense in (near) native English? Why does this rhetoric deviate so radically from traditional Chinese diplomatic rhetoric?

Donald Trump is the one who is unhinged. Xi is far more strategic. China now has a returning generation very well educated in Western rhetoric and PR. And Donald Trump is the perfect cover for bellicosity.
My basis for disagreeing is that my opinion is as good as yours as your anti Trump bias invalidates any local knowledge you may have gained.

There's multiple reasons why Xi and China are behaving the way they are, you just picked the one you like the most.
Three things.

First, you can take or leave my intuition on the rhetoric, but keep it mind and see if you notice anything. If I'm wrong, I'll buy you a beer.

Second, come on, Trump is a mentally ill moon unit - verifiably, obviously, plainly - no bias needed. And he's in the most powerful position in the world, which is a disaster. If this were apolitical you wouldn't be calling my views on the bloke 'anti' anything; it would just be common knowledge.

Third, do you honestly think I am arguing there is only one reason for anything? Putting that red herring aside, I have advanced an intuition that the rhetoric has changed, and it has changed such I think it's a conscious PR strategy. But I have also put forward an argument about the dangers of rhetorical escalation. Hysteria destabilises polities, and puerile extreme rhetoric begets hysteria and buttresses extremist politicians and their political support.

Tell me, why is my thesis about extremist rhetoric wrong, and how can you possibly argue that Trump is not driving rhetorical hysteria in relation to China?
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stui magpie
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Post by stui magpie »

Firstly, China does what China wants, they act deliberately even when it seems over the top and hysterical, it's calculated.

Leave aside the physcological profiling of Trump, you could mount a successful argument that by his actions he has enabled the CCP, provided windows of opportunity for them but enabling isn't driving.

The CCP has their own agenda and they drive to that, Trump or not. If Biden becomes POTUS, they will no doubt modify their behaviour toward the USA, but it may or may not be better.
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Post by roar »

Well said, stui. In fact, I believe Biden in power would return us to the CCPs "quiet" expansion, which is good for China, pretty shite for everyone else.
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Post by David »

Personally, I'd just be happy to see the US go away and mind its own business for a bit. There are plenty of other countries and blocs with leverage against China, and we don't need a new cold war to keep the world multipolar.
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Post by pietillidie »

roar wrote:Well said, stui. In fact, I believe Biden in power would return us to the CCPs "quiet" expansion, which is good for China, pretty shite for everyone else.
What 'quiet' expansion? Are you saying we missed the rise of China somehow? Didn't notice all that economic growth, investment in other countries, and the BRI?

Did people also forget to tell you who was driving the natural resources boom in your own country, holding down inflation for two decades and supplying tourists and students? Were you expecting China's international influence to keep pace with that of Togo?

You talk as if there are only two international relations options here: sitting idly by or carrying on like a moon unit. Is that what FB told you?

No, there's a third option: serious leadership. It's a mix of pragmatism, firm counter measures, mutually-beneficial carrots, and diplomatic hard work.
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roar
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Post by roar »

^ Pull your head in, you're raving like a lunatic.

Naive, rude and no-way-near clever enough to get away with it.
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pietillidie
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Post by pietillidie »

^So you're not fond of being challenged. Fair enough. Nonetheless, you said:
roar wrote:In fact, I believe Biden in power would return us to the CCPs "quiet" expansion, which is good for China, pretty shite for everyone else.
This is a doozy. Let's examine it:

1. The rise of China, the views of its leadership, its leadership ambitions, and openly-expressed and published policies have been part of a 'quiet' expansion, more like a conspiracy devised in the back room of a restaurant in Chinatown than the central economic story and international relations topic of the last two decades.

2. Captain Coronavirus the Mental, with his bellicose and cringeworthy outbursts that provide hardliners in China with dream PR, his suppression of global economic growth through trade war instability, his permanent domestic destabilising of the super power, his dangerous abuse of executive norms, his unsurpassed ability as a malignant narcissist to destroy relationships and offside partners, and his ragtag collection of talentless family members and cronies, backed by a fist-waving cult of backward weirdos and religious nutters, is the man to deal with a very, very complex world problem that involves balancing the needs of multiple nations and stakeholders at the highest levels worldwide.

This is the very same wounded, irrational reflex that gave the world Afghanistan and Iraq and the monstrous consequences of devotion to a completely incompetent dunderhead in George W.

When facing world complexities, let's chest beat hysterically, fail to analyse the problem in any depth, and find the most incompetent people imaginable with a horrendous track record to lead the way.
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Post by David »

"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
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Post by stui magpie »

Meanwhile we should re-re name this thread to F U China.

So ScMo and the Lib Nats are going for legislation that will belt Dandrews deal with China straight up his own dirt Road.

Basic construct as I understand it, under the constitution, foreign affairs is a federal matter. So the Feds can legislate to make any state or local government agreement with any other country has to pass the fed test.

Dandrews signing up to China's Belt and Road initiative passes nothing, not ever Albo will waffle about it.

Some reading, choose your poison.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... with-china

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... APPED.html

https://theconversation.com/morrison-go ... ion-145124

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 55pqp.html

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-26/ ... tion=world
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Post by Jezza »

Hope Morrison is able to veto the agreement.

The fact that Andrews signed up to it is scandalous.
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Post by eddiesmith »

The fact that Albo even said he wouldn’t dream of signing up to it says everything, when the Federal leader of your party is running away, it must be a bad deal.

But good to see ScoMo taking on the constructive advice from the left, they keep complaining he isn’t taking over the states ever since he was blamed for fire services funding last summer.
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Post by pietillidie »

What's he signed up for, exactly? I've never been able to catch the specifics at a glance.
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Post by pietillidie »

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