George Pell sexual abuse trials and fresh investigation

Nick's current affairs & general discussion about anything that's not sport.
Voice your opinion on stories of interest to all at Nick's.

Moderator: bbmods

Post Reply
K
Posts: 21557
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:23 pm
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 32 times

Post by K »

User avatar
Pies4shaw
Posts: 34888
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:14 pm
Has liked: 136 times
Been liked: 182 times

Post by Pies4shaw »

David wrote:Basically, they found that the acts were both possible and, given the compelling testimony of the victim, beyond reasonable doubt. The dissenting judge, Mark Weinberg, however, found that the testimony was unbelievable and implausible.

Perhaps the prosecution lawyer, Christopher Boyce, was more brilliant than any of us gave him credit for (or more likely, that it didn't matter greatly what he said or did during the hearing).
The bold bit is correct. That was the reason for my post that the appeal judges would work it out entirely unassisted. For all of the rubbish that has been written about this in the media, the basic issues in the case were very straightforward. You don't get to be President of the Court of Appeal because you can't reach a sensible decision unless you are entertained by Counsel.

The important bit going forward is to appreciate that the vast majority of applications for special leave are refused (the chances of getting special leave any day of the week are less than about 5%). And, being granted special leave to appeal to the High Court, if he is, does not mean that Pell will win. Framing an informed market, you'd probably say that he's about 50 to 1 or worse to get up from here.

The criteria for a grant of special leave are set out in section 35A of the Judiciary Act:

http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/ ... /s35a.html

In the ordinary way, I expect that the the appeal papers will be available on line (perhaps with redactions to maintain the public anonymity of the complainant). I will post links when (if) they are available.

If you thought the earlier processes were interesting or surprising, you're going to love special leave. It's a little like a "super over" - the judges have a timer on the bench - the red light goes on after 20 minutes and you shut up, mid-sentence, at that point. That's if the Court even thinks the application warrants an oral hearing.
K
Posts: 21557
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:23 pm
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 32 times

Post by K »

Pies4shaw wrote:
David wrote:...
(or more likely, that it didn't matter greatly what he said or did during the hearing).
The bold bit is correct. That was the reason for my post that the appeal judges would work it out entirely unassisted. ... You don't get to be President of the Court of Appeal because you can't reach a sensible decision unless you are entertained by Counsel.
...
CB may be relieved by that. It was truly stunning ineptitude on display.
watt price tully
Posts: 20842
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 1:14 pm

Post by watt price tully »

David wrote:I wasn't sure before, but watching this now, I'll eat my shoe if Pell doesn't win the appeal.......
Would you like fries with that :wink: :P
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
User avatar
Dave The Man
Posts: 45002
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 2:04 pm
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 23 times
Contact:

Post by Dave The Man »

Glad the Appeal was Squashed for Pedophile Pell
I am Da Man
User avatar
David
Posts: 50690
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:04 pm
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
Has liked: 20 times
Been liked: 84 times

Post by David »

watt price tully wrote:
David wrote:I wasn't sure before, but watching this now, I'll eat my shoe if Pell doesn't win the appeal.......
Would you like fries with that :wink: :P
https://youtu.be/RNNGzMK5e4c
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
User avatar
stui magpie
Posts: 54851
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 10:10 am
Location: In flagrante delicto
Has liked: 134 times
Been liked: 169 times

Post by stui magpie »

^

You really shouldn't make bets. On anything.
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
User avatar
think positive
Posts: 40243
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:33 pm
Location: somewhere
Has liked: 342 times
Been liked: 105 times

Post by think positive »

Change his name to stevo
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
User avatar
David
Posts: 50690
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:04 pm
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
Has liked: 20 times
Been liked: 84 times

Post by David »

stui magpie wrote:^

You really shouldn't make bets. On anything.
Just call me the Kiss of Death...
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
K
Posts: 21557
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:23 pm
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 32 times

Post by K »

User avatar
David
Posts: 50690
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:04 pm
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
Has liked: 20 times
Been liked: 84 times

Post by David »

^ Extraordinary how experienced legal figures can have such vastly different opinions when presented with the same evidence. Obviously the three-member judging panel is a means of mitigating against such issues, but it still seems stunning that, had one different judge been appointed who shared Weinberg's doubts, Pell would be a free man today as opposed to going down in the history books as a child molester. Perhaps justice has to be binary by its nature, but there's evidently a fair bit of chance there.
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
User avatar
Pies4shaw
Posts: 34888
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:14 pm
Has liked: 136 times
Been liked: 182 times

Post by Pies4shaw »

David wrote:^ Extraordinary how experienced legal figures can have such vastly different opinions when presented with the same evidence. Obviously the three-member judging panel is a means of mitigating against such issues, but it still seems stunning that, had one different judge been appointed who shared Weinberg's doubts, Pell would be a free man today as opposed to going down in the history books as a child molester. Perhaps justice has to be binary by its nature, but there's evidently a fair bit of chance there.
This is very common. The whole point of an appellate process is to try to moderate for diversity of opinion. 2:1 (or, on the High Court, 6:1, 5:2 or 4:3) decisions are not unusual. The most disappointing aspect of this whole tawdry affair is that no one much seems to care about the systemic issues but lots of people seem to want to plead specially for Pell. Generally, historical sexual offences create difficult evidentiary questions and raise potential appeal points. Criminal appeals mostly get no press or, if they do, the reports are negative about the defendant.
K
Posts: 21557
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:23 pm
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 32 times

Post by K »

George Pell decides to appeal to the High Court

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 52kl4.html

"Sources have told The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald that Pell is determined to pursue his last avenue of appeal after receiving unanimous advice from his legal team that the dissenting opinion of Victorian Supreme Court Justice Mark Weinberg provided reasonable grounds to have his convictions overturned.

Pell has 21 days from last Wednesday's Court of Appeal judgement to formally lodge an application for special leave to appeal to the High Court. It is likely that a short hearing to determine his application will be listed for this year.
...

Pell's lawyers - solicitor Paul Galbally and barristers Bret Walker, SC, Ruth Shann and Robert Richter, QC - have spent the days since the failed appeal poring over the dissenting judgement of Justice Weinberg, a former director of Commonwealth Public Prosecutions who is considered one of Australia's leading criminal law jurists.
...

Although Pell's grounds for another appeal are yet to be finalised, legal experts familiar with the workings of the High Court believe they will centre on a broad provision which allows the court to intervene in any case "in the interests of the administration of justice"."
User avatar
Pies4shaw
Posts: 34888
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:14 pm
Has liked: 136 times
Been liked: 182 times

Post by Pies4shaw »

^ More unmitigated drivel, there. The position is as follows:

1. Of course he is going to the High Court - the alternative is prison. I think we have known this since about 3 minutes after the Court of Appeal's decision was handed down.
2. He won't be "appealing" in the first instance. He will be seeking special leave.
3. If (and only if) he gets special leave, he will be allowed to appeal to the High Court.
3. The "broad provision" to which reference is being made is the third basis upon which special leave might be granted (as to which see section 35A(b) of the Judiciary Act, to which I have posted a link, above). It is not an "appeal" ground. It is a basis for getting a foot in the door for the special leave application. His legal team will have decided to "centre" on that one, because they will likely have concluded that he has no prospect of getting special leave on the others.
K
Posts: 21557
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:23 pm
Has liked: 6 times
Been liked: 32 times

Post by K »

think positive wrote:...
Even made the news here!...
What country, TP? A Catholic country?
Last edited by K on Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply