'Sun setting' on Aussies
From correspondents in Lahore
October 15, 2003
FORMER Australian batsman Dean Jones today warned that his country's domination of world cricket will fade once the team's ageing stars begin to retire.
"They are having their time in the sun but trust me in a few years some other team will over run them," said Jones.
"I do fear, once you lose Glen McGrath and Shane Warne, we would come back to the pack quickly."
Jones, who played 52 Tests and 164 one-day internationals in the 1980s and 1990s, winning the World Cup in 1987, said most other countries are fielding younger sides.
"A lot of their (Australia's) guys are over the age of 30, Pakistan has two and SA (South Africa) one in Pollock so don't worry it will come," said Jones, who is working here as a television commentator.
Since the 1999 World triumph in England, Australia has had an imperious run in world cricket, registering a world record by winning 16 consecutive Tests.
They won their third one-day world title this year and this week thrashed Zimbabwe by an innings and 175 runs in Perth.
Nine of Australia's 14-man squad for the first Zimbabwe Test were aged 30 or over.
Sun setting on Aussies - Deano's warning
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pies4ever
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Donny
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Yep, I agree with Deano but it's an understandable problem.
The mighty West Indies team of the '70s/'80s sunk very quickly when, over a short period, they lost Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Dujon, Garner, Holding etc.
Australia are probably better prepared for this but will still find it difficult to cover the experience of Waugh, Warne, McGrath, Lehmann etc. and even the present 'waiting in line' replacements - MacGill, Hogg, Love - are no spring chickens.
With McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Bichel being the only quicks used in recent years, no young speedsters are being blooded except in the one day team.
We could see our front line attack being something like Lee, Williams, Bracken and Noffke in as soon as two years. Good bowlers ? Yes, but the experience factor could be telling
Who are the young spinners after MacGill and Hogg ? Only Hauritz comes to mind and he's still learning.
Waugh averages around 100 over his last 10 innings and with the other batsmen (except Langer) in form and the 29 y.o. Love next in line, what do we do ?
How do we get players like Clarke, Hodge, Hussey, Bracken, Noffke, Hauritz etc. into the team ?
The mighty West Indies team of the '70s/'80s sunk very quickly when, over a short period, they lost Greenidge, Haynes, Richards, Dujon, Garner, Holding etc.
Australia are probably better prepared for this but will still find it difficult to cover the experience of Waugh, Warne, McGrath, Lehmann etc. and even the present 'waiting in line' replacements - MacGill, Hogg, Love - are no spring chickens.
With McGrath, Gillespie, Lee and Bichel being the only quicks used in recent years, no young speedsters are being blooded except in the one day team.
We could see our front line attack being something like Lee, Williams, Bracken and Noffke in as soon as two years. Good bowlers ? Yes, but the experience factor could be telling
Who are the young spinners after MacGill and Hogg ? Only Hauritz comes to mind and he's still learning.
Waugh averages around 100 over his last 10 innings and with the other batsmen (except Langer) in form and the 29 y.o. Love next in line, what do we do ?
How do we get players like Clarke, Hodge, Hussey, Bracken, Noffke, Hauritz etc. into the team ?
Donny.
It's a game. Enjoy it.
It's a game. Enjoy it.
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gobbles21
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I've been saying this for a while but we need an Australian A team to tour and play more often. If our second best test team toured other countries and played not only their state teams but their international teams aswell, they would gain alot of experience. I dont know weather teams like South Africa would be interested in playing an Australian A team in a couple of 4 day matches, so that is when we could play a South African A side. It would benifit both countries development at once. We currently do this at oneday level, but not in 4 or 5 day matches.
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piedys
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Donny,
I don't think the ACB will allow another "Chappell. Lillie, Marsh" episode to happen, when we had three simultanious retirements from the national team at the end of 1983. They were all leaders and the set-back this caused the side is WELL documented as i'm sure you are aware.
I think it's fair to say that the recent retirements have been well staggered over a few seasons. I doubt we will see more than 2-3 players retire per season, thus making the transition non-impacting on the Aussies in the near future.
Clarke's star will rise very soon.
Dyso
I don't think the ACB will allow another "Chappell. Lillie, Marsh" episode to happen, when we had three simultanious retirements from the national team at the end of 1983. They were all leaders and the set-back this caused the side is WELL documented as i'm sure you are aware.
I think it's fair to say that the recent retirements have been well staggered over a few seasons. I doubt we will see more than 2-3 players retire per season, thus making the transition non-impacting on the Aussies in the near future.
Clarke's star will rise very soon.
Dyso
M I L L A N E 4 2 forever
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commonwombat
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Tazza,
Methinks it may be yourself rather than Deano who is labouring under certain delusions.
Certainly an Australia A side would be a match for probably all international sides (incl Aust first XI) but what would be the make up of this side.
The current injury run has tested Australia's depth in pace and spin bowling. Innes and poss Dawes aside, the best credentialled pacemen outside the injury list are fairly advanced in years.
Hauritz is the only younger spinner of any note. Outside of Clarke, the best credentialled batsmen are mid late 20's at best and into early 30's.
Essentially Australian crickets grassroots aren't as healthy as some think. It is no longer a mass participation sport as was 20-25 yrs ago. Basically they come from cricket playing fathers and/or attend private schools.
Such an observation may offend some like Tazza and other "patriots" but is merely an objective observations. Over to you.
Methinks it may be yourself rather than Deano who is labouring under certain delusions.
Certainly an Australia A side would be a match for probably all international sides (incl Aust first XI) but what would be the make up of this side.
The current injury run has tested Australia's depth in pace and spin bowling. Innes and poss Dawes aside, the best credentialled pacemen outside the injury list are fairly advanced in years.
Hauritz is the only younger spinner of any note. Outside of Clarke, the best credentialled batsmen are mid late 20's at best and into early 30's.
Essentially Australian crickets grassroots aren't as healthy as some think. It is no longer a mass participation sport as was 20-25 yrs ago. Basically they come from cricket playing fathers and/or attend private schools.
Such an observation may offend some like Tazza and other "patriots" but is merely an objective observations. Over to you.
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!
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piedys
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Does everyone remember the 1994/1995 3-way ODI series over that summer? I think that was the one where Australia-A occupied one of the "international" spots. As i recall the public had been screaming for it, and indeed got what they asked for. Plaudits to the ACB there.
Can anybody remember the actual line-up of that Australia-A squad? As it would be interseting to see exactly how many players stepped up to and/or cemented a place in the Aussie 1st XI since it's inception.
IMO playing these blokes in the "magoos" (A-team) is a definate way to gauge whether or not they have what it takes to make the transistion to the 1st XI. A most beneficial concept indeed.
Dyso
Can anybody remember the actual line-up of that Australia-A squad? As it would be interseting to see exactly how many players stepped up to and/or cemented a place in the Aussie 1st XI since it's inception.
IMO playing these blokes in the "magoos" (A-team) is a definate way to gauge whether or not they have what it takes to make the transistion to the 1st XI. A most beneficial concept indeed.
Dyso
M I L L A N E 4 2 forever
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commonwombat
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Dyso,
As I recall Martyn captained the A side with names like Langer, Blewett, Bevan being prominent. Through the later 90's they often played a 4-5 day game in Hobart between an A side and (one of ) the touring sides. Remember the Poms getting a bath in one of them.
They have generally been playing one A one dayer per season although there were about 3-4 last season, with Campbell from WA showing up well with bat and gloves.
The ACB may be reluctant to allow an A team in the full comp because going back to 94-95, people really got behind the A team and some 1st team players got the poohs at being barracked by home crowds. Would an A team really be allowed to beat the firsts???
Also, despite the performances in these matches being intl standard they cannot count as official ODI on players and team stats.
As I recall Martyn captained the A side with names like Langer, Blewett, Bevan being prominent. Through the later 90's they often played a 4-5 day game in Hobart between an A side and (one of ) the touring sides. Remember the Poms getting a bath in one of them.
They have generally been playing one A one dayer per season although there were about 3-4 last season, with Campbell from WA showing up well with bat and gloves.
The ACB may be reluctant to allow an A team in the full comp because going back to 94-95, people really got behind the A team and some 1st team players got the poohs at being barracked by home crowds. Would an A team really be allowed to beat the firsts???
Also, despite the performances in these matches being intl standard they cannot count as official ODI on players and team stats.
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!
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tazza2000
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Wombat,
You obviously believe that Australia will be an easybeat in 4-5 years judging by your comments about 'Future' stars.
Just remember the McGraths, Warnes, Waughs were all nobodys once. Only time will tell wether the Williams, Clarkes, Cambells will be champions also.
BTW im not deluded
You obviously believe that Australia will be an easybeat in 4-5 years judging by your comments about 'Future' stars.
Just remember the McGraths, Warnes, Waughs were all nobodys once. Only time will tell wether the Williams, Clarkes, Cambells will be champions also.
BTW im not deluded
Last edited by tazza2000 on Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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commonwombat
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Tazza,
I will happily withdraw the deluded comment and apologise for any inaccurate allusions as to your mental capacity.
Where I will take issue is with yr tendency to make broad statements where someone makes a point/comment at odds with your view, maybe not in genral but certainly with regards to this topic.
Dean Jones is "crazy" for making an honest if stark assessment of the age of much of our likely replacements. You draw a broad conclusion that I "obviously believe that Australia will be an easybeat in 4-5 years" whereas I made no comment to that effect at all.
I have merely tried to illustrate my argument in support of Jones' comment. Frankly, God knows who may or may not make the grade. I stand by my comment about the shrinking base of kids playing the game.
Australia will probably not be easybeats, though their dominance may decrease due to the critical state of the game internationally.
England's grass roots are even worse than Australia's and is drawing from a ever shrinking base. New Zealand cricket will always be the poor relation to rugby having to share most grounds and limited money. West Indies is a permanent B side with US taking over the former British dominance in the poorer Caribbean.
Cricket is dominant on the sub continent but is a permanent political grenade. Sth Africa's grass roots are good and is the only near economic equal to Aus but is cut up by politics. Zimbabwe is similar but magnified tragically.
Having experience of cricket at high level in 2 countries, I believe I can comment with some intelligence and hopefully dispassionately on the game. FYI, I admire the ability and achievement of recent and current Australian sides but do I barrack for them, No. In cricket and rugby, I support the country in which I was raised.
I will happily withdraw the deluded comment and apologise for any inaccurate allusions as to your mental capacity.
Where I will take issue is with yr tendency to make broad statements where someone makes a point/comment at odds with your view, maybe not in genral but certainly with regards to this topic.
Dean Jones is "crazy" for making an honest if stark assessment of the age of much of our likely replacements. You draw a broad conclusion that I "obviously believe that Australia will be an easybeat in 4-5 years" whereas I made no comment to that effect at all.
I have merely tried to illustrate my argument in support of Jones' comment. Frankly, God knows who may or may not make the grade. I stand by my comment about the shrinking base of kids playing the game.
Australia will probably not be easybeats, though their dominance may decrease due to the critical state of the game internationally.
England's grass roots are even worse than Australia's and is drawing from a ever shrinking base. New Zealand cricket will always be the poor relation to rugby having to share most grounds and limited money. West Indies is a permanent B side with US taking over the former British dominance in the poorer Caribbean.
Cricket is dominant on the sub continent but is a permanent political grenade. Sth Africa's grass roots are good and is the only near economic equal to Aus but is cut up by politics. Zimbabwe is similar but magnified tragically.
Having experience of cricket at high level in 2 countries, I believe I can comment with some intelligence and hopefully dispassionately on the game. FYI, I admire the ability and achievement of recent and current Australian sides but do I barrack for them, No. In cricket and rugby, I support the country in which I was raised.
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!
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tazza2000
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Wombat,
The last thing I want to do is get into a big debate and i'm sure you probably know more about cricket than I do, but what I Don't like people like Deano coming out and saying that Australia's time in the Spotlight is over, how does he know???
You said that Australia's grassroots cricket isn't as big as it was 20-25, which could be true for all i know i wasn't even born then.
But to say that "Basically they come from cricket playing fathers and/or attend private schools" is wrong. If you saw the number of kids who play cricket because they love the game and pretending to be the Gilchrists out in the cricket nets and staying up until 3 to watch a world cup game against NAMBIA then I would say Australian Grassroots is as healthy as ever.
How many of the current Australian team were from cricket playing fathers and/or attend private schools??
Anyway what do I know i'm just a fan
The last thing I want to do is get into a big debate and i'm sure you probably know more about cricket than I do, but what I Don't like people like Deano coming out and saying that Australia's time in the Spotlight is over, how does he know???
You said that Australia's grassroots cricket isn't as big as it was 20-25, which could be true for all i know i wasn't even born then.
But to say that "Basically they come from cricket playing fathers and/or attend private schools" is wrong. If you saw the number of kids who play cricket because they love the game and pretending to be the Gilchrists out in the cricket nets and staying up until 3 to watch a world cup game against NAMBIA then I would say Australian Grassroots is as healthy as ever.
How many of the current Australian team were from cricket playing fathers and/or attend private schools??
Anyway what do I know i'm just a fan
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Donny
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tazza2000, you said, "The last thing I want to do is get into a big debate" I say, "Why not?" It's healthy and you are both making good points.
May I comment. Deano's opinion does carry some weight as he was a front line Aussie cricketer for a long time. He was a big part of our re-emergence of the late '80s.
His style of play was innovative and is now the way nearly all Aussie batsmen play. Has has captained Victoria and English County side, Durham.
He played one of the all time great Test innings in India - an incredibly courageous double ton in oppressive heat which put him in hospital in a life threatening situation.
Recently a panel of distinguished former cricketing greats included Jones in their top six of the world's best ever one day team.
I have witnessed our local cricket dwindle from a healthy 7 team comp. to a 'struggling for numbers' 1 team which competes in another town's league.
In the last few years of our local cricket, as we gradually became a 5, then 4, then 3 team comp., we just weren't attracting young cricketers. We even had a strong, 5 team, winter comp. Sadly, season 2003 looks like being the last.
Sports and passtimes like Baseball, Basketball, Soccer, Surfing, Skating, Computers etc. all seem to have more appeal. Yes, the youngsters get really involved with Kanga cricket and love their heros in the national team but as they get a bit older, most of them are heading off to the previous mentioned other activities.
Even one day cricket is about 6 hours in duration so, as we play cricket in summer, it's not hard to see why teenagers find other activities more appealing.
The immediate future looks healthy for Oz cricket but I do have concerns for our long term prospects.
May I comment. Deano's opinion does carry some weight as he was a front line Aussie cricketer for a long time. He was a big part of our re-emergence of the late '80s.
His style of play was innovative and is now the way nearly all Aussie batsmen play. Has has captained Victoria and English County side, Durham.
He played one of the all time great Test innings in India - an incredibly courageous double ton in oppressive heat which put him in hospital in a life threatening situation.
Recently a panel of distinguished former cricketing greats included Jones in their top six of the world's best ever one day team.
I have witnessed our local cricket dwindle from a healthy 7 team comp. to a 'struggling for numbers' 1 team which competes in another town's league.
In the last few years of our local cricket, as we gradually became a 5, then 4, then 3 team comp., we just weren't attracting young cricketers. We even had a strong, 5 team, winter comp. Sadly, season 2003 looks like being the last.
Sports and passtimes like Baseball, Basketball, Soccer, Surfing, Skating, Computers etc. all seem to have more appeal. Yes, the youngsters get really involved with Kanga cricket and love their heros in the national team but as they get a bit older, most of them are heading off to the previous mentioned other activities.
Even one day cricket is about 6 hours in duration so, as we play cricket in summer, it's not hard to see why teenagers find other activities more appealing.
The immediate future looks healthy for Oz cricket but I do have concerns for our long term prospects.
Donny.
It's a game. Enjoy it.
It's a game. Enjoy it.
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tazza2000
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I'm not questioning Deano's ability as a cricketer. I know he is a champion and I did not mean to bag him in any way in my comments. But him being a great cricketer, it does not enable him to see how Australia's future will pan out.
As for where I live, once the footy season ends, every kid couldn't care at all about any other sports, everyone becomes cricket fanatics within the time of 2 weeks.
As for where I live, once the footy season ends, every kid couldn't care at all about any other sports, everyone becomes cricket fanatics within the time of 2 weeks.
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commonwombat
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Tazza,
By no means would I set up Dean Jones or myself as infallable authorities on Australian cricket. No one is that gifted although some will claim they are. I would frequently disagree with Mr Jones, but on his observation re player age and depth he is borne out by some hard cold facts and statistics.
Indeed he is not the first or only cricket media figure to make such an observation. Where are these younger players putting convincing cases for selection??? Sadly they are few on the ground in both batting and bowling. Certainly we may name a few but a putative Australia A side would be formidable but somewhat advanced in age.
That is indeed gratifying that grassroots cricket in yr area is strong. Sadly in Sydney, the case is not so. I am currently a Sydney first grade umpire so will see much of the health of the game.
Some grade clubs now fail to field sides in all grades, even after the amalgamation of some clubs. On the northern more affluent side of Sydney, 2 junior associations have folded, others have merged due to clubs packing up and falling number of teams. Donny's point re loss of players by mid teens is sadly true. It is more pronounced in much of the southern areas.
Tazza, I appreciate the manner in which you have kept this frank exchange of views civil (my unfortunate deluded was in respose to yr reference to Jones being crazy) and respect yr views.
My point of issue has been that you appear to be playing shoot the messenger. Deano stated the fact that the bulk of this side is advancing in years and the replacements are of similar ages or not a great deal younger. As this acclaimed generation is getting to the end of their careers without the long term replacements, his observation is sad but factual. The teams overwhelming dominance is likely to decline.
By no means would I set up Dean Jones or myself as infallable authorities on Australian cricket. No one is that gifted although some will claim they are. I would frequently disagree with Mr Jones, but on his observation re player age and depth he is borne out by some hard cold facts and statistics.
Indeed he is not the first or only cricket media figure to make such an observation. Where are these younger players putting convincing cases for selection??? Sadly they are few on the ground in both batting and bowling. Certainly we may name a few but a putative Australia A side would be formidable but somewhat advanced in age.
That is indeed gratifying that grassroots cricket in yr area is strong. Sadly in Sydney, the case is not so. I am currently a Sydney first grade umpire so will see much of the health of the game.
Some grade clubs now fail to field sides in all grades, even after the amalgamation of some clubs. On the northern more affluent side of Sydney, 2 junior associations have folded, others have merged due to clubs packing up and falling number of teams. Donny's point re loss of players by mid teens is sadly true. It is more pronounced in much of the southern areas.
Tazza, I appreciate the manner in which you have kept this frank exchange of views civil (my unfortunate deluded was in respose to yr reference to Jones being crazy) and respect yr views.
My point of issue has been that you appear to be playing shoot the messenger. Deano stated the fact that the bulk of this side is advancing in years and the replacements are of similar ages or not a great deal younger. As this acclaimed generation is getting to the end of their careers without the long term replacements, his observation is sad but factual. The teams overwhelming dominance is likely to decline.
he's an animal, what can u expect!!!