Our draft record under Derek Hine et al

[thompsoc]

hine was sitting near me at the footy today. could have asked him to clear things up.

2006 to 2013: finals appearance each year, two gf's and one flag.
1997 to 2005: two finals appearances, two gf's, no flags and one spoon.

1997 to 2003 for Judkin
2004 to 2015 so far for Hine

[thompsoc]

It can be argued that you're complaining about Hine purely because we won on the weekend (on the back of some great games by some inspired pieces of Hine recruiting) and you have nothing else to moan about this week.

As for the results during Judknis tenure- 2 lost GF's one of them an embarrassing shellacking and all the other years we were cellar dwellers. Gee Hawthorn must be looking at that record with envy at the moment hey?


Would you really swap our last decades performances for that? Really? Truly? Yeah sure you would.

The usual rubbish abuse - I am complaining because we won. What a pathetic comeback - Primary school stuff.
I tell you what I would swap - Hawthorn's record in Hine's tenure.
Who would you take - Hawks list or Our list at the moment?
Yeah ... Hine is a Genius! Best in the league!

[Pies2016]

W O Y, wonder if Judkins was involved in the recruitment of any of those players from the other clubs. Its usually what recruiting guys do.

Remember Freo and Port both entered the comp in the mid 90s and received significant concessions at the time. It wasnt an easy time for Vic clubs.
Simplistically, we played in two GFs on his watch. Other than essendon ( where he came from ) there was barely another Vic Club firing a shot in the early 2000s.

[thompsoc]

The reason I am talking about Hine is that I have made 2 statements
in the past year.
1 That Hine has not given us a proven A grader since Beams in 2008.
Which no one has put up any evidence to the contrary.
2. That he is over rated up until this time in his career.
With statements such as " Hine is a genius" and " In Hine we trust"
Nearly every Nick poster parrots these slogans.
I think he is reasonable but that is it.
I believed he first got these accolades when he picked Pendles and Daisy in 2005.
Both were not rated in the top 5 but were generally rated in the top dozen or so.
It was believed Pendles, in particular, had tremendous upside given his background.
It was a definite win for Hine.
So the media runs with this line - Hine is a genius etc..etc... and the Nick posters run with this line but I don't!
Hine had a big core of players left over from Judkin's reign which helped him get into 2 GF's .
We basically have a Hine player list now.
And to me, we look light years away from the PA's, Crow's, Hawks and the Cats , let alone the up and comers like GWS.
We may have great potential or we may not so please don't give me ...the Berg..the De Goey ..etc..etc..are certain A graders!
People keep knocking Judkin but he gave us Swan at pick 58!
What a Genius! Our best draft pick ever!!!
Where is the equivalent from Hine???
So parrots keep me honest and reply!

[thompsoc]

W O Y, wonder if Judkins was involved in the recruitment of any of those players from the other clubs. Its usually what recruiting guys do.

Remember Freo and Port both entered the comp in the mid 90s and received significant concessions at the time. It wasnt an easy time for Vic clubs.
Simplistically, we played in two GFs on his watch. Other than essendon ( where he came from ) there was barely another Vic Club firing a shot in the early 2000s.

Well said - I hadn't thought of those points.

[Flashman]

It can be argued that you're complaining about Hine purely because we won on the weekend (on the back of some great games by some inspired pieces of Hine recruiting) and you have nothing else to moan about this week.

As for the results during Judknis tenure- 2 lost GF's one of them an embarrassing shellacking and all the other years we were cellar dwellers. Gee Hawthorn must be looking at that record with envy at the moment hey?


Would you really swap our last decades performances for that? Really? Truly? Yeah sure you would.

The usual rubbish abuse - I am complaining because we won. What a pathetic comeback - Primary school stuff.
I tell you what I would swap - Hawthorn's record in Hine's tenure.
Who would you take - Hawks list or Our list at the moment?
Yeah ... Hine is a Genius! Best in the league!

What abuse? I'm calling you out for moaning because that's exactly what you are doing. The only abuse I've seen is from you calling everyone else sheep because we don't see things the way you do. Grow the hell up.

What's truly pathetic is shit canning the performance of Derek Hine who has performed exceptionally well during an extended period of success for our football club including a premiership with little to no basis aside from mentioning a few picks that didn't make it (which as has been shown can be done by anyone about any recruiter).

As for primary school stuff you're really showing your maturity by constantly posting childish "Hine is a genius, best in the league" after every post. My 8 year old wouldn't carry on like that.

You've clearly got a bug up your arse for some reason about Hine's performance and the results our club has delivered during his time in charge of recruiting (God knows why) so I challenge you to articulate where you think he has gone wrong and how this has effected our club over the past decade, without resorting to trite stuff like naming a few missed picks or dud players because that wont cut it in light of our performances during this time for mine.

I'm waiting.

[Bob Sugar]

W O Y, wonder if Judkins was involved in the recruitment of any of those players from the other clubs. Its usually what recruiting guys do.

Remember Freo and Port both entered the comp in the mid 90s and received significant concessions at the time. It wasnt an easy time for Vic clubs.
Simplistically, we played in two GFs on his watch. Other than essendon ( where he came from ) there was barely another Vic Club firing a shot in the early 2000s.

The head coach would have the final say on recruits from other clubs, they have the final word on any deal that goes down, head recruiters are more for drafting talent.

[thompsoc]

I don't think you can read Flashman .
I never said he was crap. I just said he was average.
Yeah.. calling people sheep could be seen as abuse I suppose.
But on Nicks if you don't give the party line then you are attacked by the
usual crowd.
Your statements such as .. truly pathetic..bug up your arse.. posting childish.. l'm bitching ... I stubbornly refuse to concede.. I lack maturity..are not abuse to you but they are to me.
I am not moaning .. just giving an opinion with stats and facts.
Why am I talking about Hine?
Because I see other teams lists are far superior to ours!

[Flashman]

Hine had a big core of players left over from Judkin's reign which helped him get into 2 GF's .

A big core of players left over from Judkins time in our two GF sides you say? Since there is conjecture about exactly when Hine took over we'll count from 2004 onwards as you say that's when Hine took over as head of recruiting.

2004- Herietier O'Brien, Travis Cloke F/S

2005-Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury, Alan Toovey

2006-Ben Reid, Nathan Brown, Chris Dawes, Tyson Goldsack, Brent Macaffer, Sharrod Wellingham

2007-

2008-Steele Sidebottom, Dayne Beams, Leigh Brown, Jarryd Blair

2009-Luke Ball, Darren Jolly (trade)

By my count that's 17 of our premiership winning 22 (23 if you count Leon Davis) that were recruited to our club under Hines management with only Jolly coming by way of trade.

So that leaves at best 5 of 22 premiership players that were recruited to the club by Judkins ( Dane Swan, Heath Shaw, Nick Maxwell, Ben Johnson, Alan Didak) or 6 of 23 if you count Leon.

Hine hardly inherited the nucleus of a premiership side going by those numbers, sorry.

Prestigiacomo probably deserves a mention as he played the bulk of 2010 before missing the GF's too but he was recruited to the club before Judkins time so he doesn't support your assertion either.

[thompsoc]

So that leaves at best 5 of 22 premiership players that were recruited to the club by Judkins ( Dane Swan, Heath Shaw, Nick Maxwell, Ben Johnson, Alan Didak) and leon Davis.
.

That is 6 A graders there Flashman!
And you forgot to add in Trav Cloke and Harry as you keep insisting that Judkin was responsible for the 2004 draft.
That is 8 A graders no wonder we won a flag.
Wow, he was better than I thought.

[Bob Sugar]

The reason I am talking about Hine is that I have made 2 statements
in the past year.
1 That Hine has not given us a proven A grader since Beams in 2008.
Which no one has put up any evidence to the contrary.
2. That he is over rated up until this time in his career.
With statements such as " Hine is a genius" and " In Hine we trust"
Nearly every Nick poster parrots these slogans.
I think he is reasonable but that is it.
I believed he first got these accolades when he picked Pendles and Daisy in 2005.
Both were not rated in the top 5 but were generally rated in the top dozen or so.
It was believed Pendles, in particular, had tremendous upside given his background.
It was a definite win for Hine.
So the media runs with this line - Hine is a genius etc..etc... and the Nick posters run with this line but I don't!
Hine had a big core of players left over from Judkin's reign which helped him get into 2 GF's .
We basically have a Hine player list now.
And to me, we look light years away from the PA's, Crow's, Hawks and the Cats , let alone the up and comers like GWS.n
We may have great potential or we may not so please don't give me ...the Berg..the De Goey ..etc..etc..are certain A graders!
People keep knocking Judkin but he gave us Swan at pick 58!
What a Genius! Our best draft pick ever!!!
Where is the equivalent from Hine???
So parrots keep me honest and reply!

I think drafting is a bit like gambling, knowledge helps but luck plays a big part.

I don't blame Hine for our average drafts during our hey days, wasn't like we had any quality picks, but I'm not overly impressed with the 2012-2013 drafts to date, to me our early picks in those years have been nothing short of a disaster.

[Stupied]

1 That Hine has not given us a proven A grader since Beams in 2008.
Which no one has put up any evidence to the contrary.

I'll assume you're talking about the draft, rather than trades, since he pulled in Ball and Jolly (2 A graders) in 2009 via trades for our first and second round, and in 2010 he traded in Krakouer and Tarrant.

Unless you're expecting A graders to be drafted in the late 3rd round, which is incredibly rare, let's start in 2011. Our first round pick was used as a trade, but let's class it as a draft pick since it was used to secure a pre-listed GWS player in Elliott, with Marty Clarke as steak knives, in a compromised draft.

Now you say Elliott is not A grade. Fair enough. There are many that would disagree with you, many who think he is on the cusp. Since we are using Beams as the yardstick here though, let's take in to account that Beams didn't become regarded as A grade until mid-late 2012 after many consistent performances in his breakout season. By that measure, Elliott should be given at least until mid-late this season for that judgement to be made on him.

If you look at Sidebottom's form late last year and in the Brisbane game, it could be argued that he's on the verge of becoming A grade. It's taken him nearly 7 years to reach that point.

The point being, every player develops differently, and it's way too early to make the call that no A graders have been recruited since 2008. You say nobody has provided any evidence to the contrary, yet at the same time, you have no evidence that Elliott, Grundy, Broomhead, Langdon, Scharenberg, Freeman, DeGoey or Moore will not reach those lofty heights.

The most that can be accurately said is that no A graders were drafted in 2009/10, due to only having late picks available. Anything beyond that is speculative bullshit, both from those who say we've recruited no A graders, and those who say we've recruited several. We won't know how any A graders have been recruited over the past few years for several years.

This has been made clear to you in several threads yet you just seem to ignore it. Just as I suspect you'll do again now. I don't know why I even bothered writing this tbh...

[thompsoc]

Still no proven A graders since Beams.
It is a simple statement. Doesn't mean much except Hine is no magician.
Elliot is not an A grader yet, that wouldn't just be my opinion.
I understand it often takes time to develop A graders.. that is a der factor!
As stated in the previous post Swan was pick 58 but Judkin was called a dud and Hine a hero.
It is the simple fact that Hine is seen as great by the Media and by the majority on Nicks..but I don't subscibe to this view.
He has had 11 years in the job which is a reasonable time frame to judge.
afterall people judged Judkin harshly and he was only there for 7 ylears.

[Dave The Man]

The reason I am talking about Hine is that I have made 2 statements
in the past year.
1 That Hine has not given us a proven A grader since Beams in 2008.
Which no one has put up any evidence to the contrary.
2. That he is over rated up until this time in his career.
With statements such as " Hine is a genius" and " In Hine we trust"
Nearly every Nick poster parrots these slogans.
I think he is reasonable but that is it.
I believed he first got these accolades when he picked Pendles and Daisy in 2005.
Both were not rated in the top 5 but were generally rated in the top dozen or so.
It was believed Pendles, in particular, had tremendous upside given his background.
It was a definite win for Hine.
So the media runs with this line - Hine is a genius etc..etc... and the Nick posters run with this line but I don't!
Hine had a big core of players left over from Judkin's reign which helped him get into 2 GF's .
We basically have a Hine player list now.
And to me, we look light years away from the PA's, Crow's, Hawks and the Cats , let alone the up and comers like GWS.
We may have great potential or we may not so please don't give me ...the Berg..the De Goey ..etc..etc..are certain A graders!
People keep knocking Judkin but he gave us Swan at pick 58!
What a Genius! Our best draft pick ever!!!
Where is the equivalent from Hine???
So parrots keep me honest and reply!

So Hine Should be Sacked then?

[thompsoc]

No Dave.
But I would if Wright wanted to join us.