"The Circle" can VC recipient.

[think positive]

"I'd done pretty well with print and radio in semester one, but I remember sitting there in the lecture while our lecturer played us a clip of an ABC news report and earnestly explained to us that the journalist looked like crap and needed to fix her hair. "

your never going to agree with everyone, but everyone has something to say, and something to teach you, especially if your writing about Life.

im guessing the teacher was qualified to be there. Brushing your hair can be way down on your list, but even the best journalists on telly are always polished, im thinking Jana Wendt.

same goes for school uniforms, its part of the deal. as in the corporate world.

i see 2 choices, wear what you want and have a job in a video store or the like, but not get paid much, and be happy with your lot, nothing wrong there. but as PP says, when you hit 40 and the knees start going, and you dont have thesavings or insurance to fix it, and then there is retirement, you dont want to be living on baked beans.

or toe the line until you have enough money to own the video store, and wear what you want.

not sure how old you are, or weather you have time or the talent to take a gap year now. thats for you to decide.

cant you do school part time? take a couple of subjects for a semester? im sure thats what my dad did.

personally ive always hated leaving things unfinished.

[Nick - Pie Man]

David, you're a young fella. Now is the time to make mistakes. You have the rest of your life to correct them

Don't ever put yourself in the position where you think 'gee I wish I'd taken a chance on that'. Conservatism is for the elderly.

[think positive]

David, you're a young fella. Now is the time to make mistakes. You have the rest of your life to correct them

Don't ever put yourself in the position where you think 'gee I wish I'd taken a chance on that'. Conservatism is for the elderly.

were you not asking yourself a simular question just last week??

[Nick - Pie Man]

Yeah, and I got the right answer in the end

[David]

"I'd done pretty well with print and radio in semester one, but I remember sitting there in the lecture while our lecturer played us a clip of an ABC news report and earnestly explained to us that the journalist looked like crap and needed to fix her hair. "

your never going to agree with everyone, but everyone has something to say, and something to teach you, especially if your writing about Life.

im guessing the teacher was qualified to be there. Brushing your hair can be way down on your list, but even the best journalists on telly are always polished, im thinking Jana Wendt.

same goes for school uniforms, its part of the deal. as in the corporate world.

i see 2 choices, wear what you want and have a job in a video store or the like, but not get paid much, and be happy with your lot, nothing wrong there. but as PP says, when you hit 40 and the knees start going, and you dont have thesavings or insurance to fix it, and then there is retirement, you dont want to be living on baked beans.

or toe the line until you have enough money to own the video store, and wear what you want.

not sure how old you are, or weather you have time or the talent to take a gap year now. thats for you to decide.

cant you do school part time? take a couple of subjects for a semester? im sure thats what my dad did.

personally ive always hated leaving things unfinished.

I'm 23, but not really sure it's the right time of my life to take a gap year. I'm in a long-term relationship, and, honestly, as much as I'd love to go overseas at some point, it's been pushed back in the priority list a little now.

The video store is a temporary thing, although whether that means 2 years, 5 years or 10 I'm unsure of. I'm still hoping to make it as a writer, so I'll continue to pursue that while I work. I certainly have no intention of becoming Jana Wendt!

Lola, among others, has recommended that I keep studying part-time, but I honestly don't think I can do it. I struggle with a big workload - as I said earlier, three subjects really pushed me - and the idea of taking even one unit while working full-time here is just a little bit more than I think I can handle. I couldn't take the stress.

Matt - my lecturer - was most certainly qualified to be there. He owned his own PR company and had a long background in journalism (mostly commercial current affairs shows). He certainly knew his stuff. That's actually one of the reasons why I was so disenchanted - it was like seeing an awful future version of myself and wanting to run a mile.

[3.14159]

I hope you took his shoes.

[think positive]

"I'd done pretty well with print and radio in semester one, but I remember sitting there in the lecture while our lecturer played us a clip of an ABC news report and earnestly explained to us that the journalist looked like crap and needed to fix her hair. "

your never going to agree with everyone, but everyone has something to say, and something to teach you, especially if your writing about Life.

im guessing the teacher was qualified to be there. Brushing your hair can be way down on your list, but even the best journalists on telly are always polished, im thinking Jana Wendt.

same goes for school uniforms, its part of the deal. as in the corporate world.

i see 2 choices, wear what you want and have a job in a video store or the like, but not get paid much, and be happy with your lot, nothing wrong there. but as PP says, when you hit 40 and the knees start going, and you dont have thesavings or insurance to fix it, and then there is retirement, you dont want to be living on baked beans.

or toe the line until you have enough money to own the video store, and wear what you want.

not sure how old you are, or weather you have time or the talent to take a gap year now. thats for you to decide.

cant you do school part time? take a couple of subjects for a semester? im sure thats what my dad did.

personally ive always hated leaving things unfinished.

I'm 23, but not really sure it's the right time of my life to take a gap year. I'm in a long-term relationship, and, honestly, as much as I'd love to go overseas at some point, it's been pushed back in the priority list a little now.

The video store is a temporary thing, although whether that means 2 years, 5 years or 10 I'm unsure of. I'm still hoping to make it as a writer, so I'll continue to pursue that while I work. I certainly have no intention of becoming Jana Wendt!

Lola, among others, has recommended that I keep studying part-time, but I honestly don't think I can do it. I struggle with a big workload - as I said earlier, three subjects really pushed me - and the idea of taking even one unit while working full-time here is just a little bit more than I think I can handle. I couldn't take the stress.

Matt - my lecturer - was most certainly qualified to be there. He owned his own PR company and had a long background in journalism (mostly commercial current affairs shows). He certainly knew his stuff. That's actually one of the reasons why I was so disenchanted - it was like seeing an awful future version of myself and wanting to run a mile.

mmm good answers and fair enough, good that you are honest about what you believe your capabilities are. Good that you have lola to back you.

(bad that i expected a smart arse answer -re my lack of experience on the subject-and had a really good reply ready!!)

ps Jana is pretty cool!!!

and the video store? so you dont get bored, make it your own - you have some fairly strong views on movies, put it out there, get the posters or slogans going, up the business, who know what you can turn it into?

get together with Nick, nothing like Pizza and a movie for a good night in!!

good luck

[stui magpie]

David, I'd like to make a few points which may fundamentally disagree with some of PTiddy's stuff.

While I agree that there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge that you can learn from, unfortunately most of them aren't in universities.

If a qualification is necessary or even highly desirable for what you do, then you should do it. Even part time, 1 subject per semester.

If not, then there's other ways.

First thing for me is you need to actively look for employment that is complimentary to what you actually want to do so you can get some practical learnings. Once in that environment you can access all sorts of stored wisdom. You won't get any of that at a video store.

Writing your own novel may be a great intellectual exercise but, unless you're really good and can pump out 1 every 2 years that people will pay to read, you aint going to make a living out of it.

I didn't go to uni, as Ptiddy does say, it gets harder as you get older. I got married young. Had kids, got divorced and worked full time as a single parent. I had no time or interest in doing part time study, I had plenty to do and bills to pay.

I did however take the opportunity to pick the brains of people I worked with. Lawyers, HR professionals etc and stored that knowledge. Nothing helps you remember stuff better (IMO) than learning it exactly when you need it or when it's relevant to something practical.

I also undertook, via work mainly, a lot of targeted specific 1 and 2 day training courses on areas of interest.

Aged over 40 I went to work in a new industry that highly values qualifications, when I have none, and I've thrived.

So, I do not believe by any stretch that university holds the key to the future. Any idiot can (and plenty do) use a combination of Google and shared information to pass subjects and get degrees when they're barely literate. It means jack shite.

What you do need to do, as I mentioned earlier, is get your arse into gear with one or the other. If you have a field of interest, either get work in it, or do study on it. If you keep doing neither, I hope you like share accommodation and being on a strict budget.

[David]

Thanks for the advice guys.

[stui magpie]

^

Cheers David.

Something to consider is a quote.

"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

Guess who said that, and no it wasn't Groucho Marx.

[Nick - Pie Man]

I thought it was 'havent let my education get in the way of my learning' - no idea who said it

[David]

Google says Albert Einstein.

[pietillidie]

David, I'd like to make a few points which may fundamentally disagree with some of PTiddy's stuff.

While I agree that there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge that you can learn from, unfortunately most of them aren't in universities.

If a qualification is necessary or even highly desirable for what you do, then you should do it. Even part time, 1 subject per semester.

If not, then there's other ways.

First thing for me is you need to actively look for employment that is complimentary to what you actually want to do so you can get some practical learnings. Once in that environment you can access all sorts of stored wisdom. You won't get any of that at a video store.

Writing your own novel may be a great intellectual exercise but, unless you're really good and can pump out 1 every 2 years that people will pay to read, you aint going to make a living out of it.

I didn't go to uni, as Ptiddy does say, it gets harder as you get older. I got married young. Had kids, got divorced and worked full time as a single parent. I had no time or interest in doing part time study, I had plenty to do and bills to pay.

I did however take the opportunity to pick the brains of people I worked with. Lawyers, HR professionals etc and stored that knowledge. Nothing helps you remember stuff better (IMO) than learning it exactly when you need it or when it's relevant to something practical.

I also undertook, via work mainly, a lot of targeted specific 1 and 2 day training courses on areas of interest.

Aged over 40 I went to work in a new industry that highly values qualifications, when I have none, and I've thrived.

So, I do not believe by any stretch that university holds the key to the future. Any idiot can (and plenty do) use a combination of Google and shared information to pass subjects and get degrees when they're barely literate. It means jack shite.

What you do need to do, as I mentioned earlier, is get your arse into gear with one or the other. If you have a field of interest, either get work in it, or do study on it. If you keep doing neither, I hope you like share accommodation and being on a strict budget.

I do agree with much of what you've said, and fortunately you're right that the economy is still elastic enough to provide multiple pathways to a good life. That said, as you've acknowledged not every destination can be reached that way, and certainly not with the same degree of ease and decoration. And given the unpredictability of life it's in some ways a gamble to assume you won't need a degree because that is a fair chunk of the economy, particularly the high salary economy, we're talking about.

David is young and highly intelligent and ought to seriously consider the national draft. Just because he can be taken in the rookie draft or as a mature-age recruit or play in the WAFL or EDFL doesn't mean he shouldn't take a close look at having a crack at the national draft; he certainly needs to assess the implications of not doing so.

Your view of university is a bit of a grim caricature, Stui! I can see why you might think that, but as I have said to David, education ranges from shoddy to brilliant; like anything in life it's up to him to demand the best for and from himself. Also, the idea that anyone can get good grades is simply false - any bum can pass, but only very intelligent people can get top grades. David didn't get an HD for poetry because any hack off the street can do what he does with poetics and prosody. And you can't be barely literate and write say 30 pages worth of essays in exams, or sit say 80 multiple choice questions and get a good grade, though again, you do have to choose reputable courses with serious lecturers.

More concretely, there is a real statistical income return to education - from memory something like 8% in Australia, and much higher than that in the US and other countries where social polarisation magnifies the effect. The more polarised Australia becomes and the less inflated salaries the mining industry provides, the worse that figure will get.

Further, education is a threshold requirement in many more subtle ways than people often realise. Not just some abstract "piece of paper", but a prerequisite for gaining high-level positions at many global companies, as well as a prerequisite for getting visas in many countries and entering many professional fields. To mention one very simple practical example, even a basic BA degree can enable a young kid to work all over the world on graduation as an English instructor. An MA will allow him to work all over the world as a university lecturer. A PhD all over the world as a lecturer and specialist consultant. This is just one trivial example of something David would probably love but won't be able to do without a degree. And he wouldn't even make it to the interview stage of any of the high-paying global jobs my clients apply for, or any of the high-paying technical professions with educational entry barriers. That is a great swathe of the high-value economy; surely not something to be scoffed at!

Let's not also forget there is a massive payoff for the country as a whole which comes from education because productivity is strongly correlated with value-adding technology, and technology with education. So not only do you put downward statistical pressure on your own income by not going to university and preclude yourself from many great opportunities, you also put downward statistical pressure on national competitiveness which eventually comes back to bite us all on the bum. And this is being magnified massively across the world from Brazil to the Middle East; as the global market becomes more genuinely free, jobs travel, skills travel and the competition inflates entry-level requirements. Also, in this discussion serious education is about the professions, not some vague Arts degree, though even the latter still correlates with higher earnings.

That said, you point to a good truth and that's that in a country of fortune like Australia the system is fair and robust enough to provide people with many opportunities and pathways. There are good management positions such as your own work which offer great career opportunities, including the chance to work overseas. This no doubt suits a certain set of people, though a degree is hardly going to limit a kid from going that direction, either.

And of course plenty of dills do get fairly shabby degrees, I certainly agree, and plenty of smart people like yourself have gotten by just fine without one. All very valid points. But at the same time many of the most highly-paid and fulfilling positions and careers on the planet are a combination of both a high-level of education and on-the-job experience.

Anyhow, who knows what the future holds for any of us and which path will take us somewhere fulfilling. Life is unpredictable and the biology of happiness so elastic anything is indeed possible; regardless, we still ought to be aware of the facts across the whole economy because many of those facts have very concrete implications.

Good luck with your decisions, David. Feel free to post or PM anytime as a lot of my work involves fielding these questions, albeit with the context of the Asian economy. Probably the most useful thing I can do for you is tell you about the world of my clients to give you another angle on things - an angle I certainly hadn't entertained growing up in the middle and working class suburbs of Melbourne.

[annewilo]

David, I'd like to make a few points which may fundamentally disagree with some of PTiddy's stuff.

While I agree that there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge that you can learn from, unfortunately most of them aren't in universities.

If a qualification is necessary or even highly desirable for what you do, then you should do it. Even part time, 1 subject per semester.

If not, then there's other ways.

First thing for me is you need to actively look for employment that is complimentary to what you actually want to do so you can get some practical learnings. Once in that environment you can access all sorts of stored wisdom. You won't get any of that at a video store.

Writing your own novel may be a great intellectual exercise but, unless you're really good and can pump out 1 every 2 years that people will pay to read, you aint going to make a living out of it.

I didn't go to uni, as Ptiddy does say, it gets harder as you get older. I got married young. Had kids, got divorced and worked full time as a single parent. I had no time or interest in doing part time study, I had plenty to do and bills to pay.

I did however take the opportunity to pick the brains of people I worked with. Lawyers, HR professionals etc and stored that knowledge. Nothing helps you remember stuff better (IMO) than learning it exactly when you need it or when it's relevant to something practical.

I also undertook, via work mainly, a lot of targeted specific 1 and 2 day training courses on areas of interest.

Aged over 40 I went to work in a new industry that highly values qualifications, when I have none, and I've thrived.

So, I do not believe by any stretch that university holds the key to the future. Any idiot can (and plenty do) use a combination of Google and shared information to pass subjects and get degrees when they're barely literate. It means jack shite.

What you do need to do, as I mentioned earlier, is get your arse into gear with one or the other. If you have a field of interest, either get work in it, or do study on it. If you keep doing neither, I hope you like share accommodation and being on a strict budget.

Great story Stui. Some things here remind me of areas of my career to date. And having hired people I am still amazed at how many post grads come out and expect their job to be highly paid and greatly rewarding. It still makes me wonder. A couple of years ago I interviewed a finance grad and asked him about his Excel experience. He said none, they never used it at uni. However, you wonder where the brain set was in applying for a position, where you were required to have Excel at Expert to Pivot tables. It was clearly mentioned in the JD. Would have thought between the application and the interview he would have purchased and read Excel for dumbies.

I have done a lot of career counselling with people and still it amazes me how many square pegs and round holes we have in the world.

So much is learnt in the real world, from life experience but not appreciated until you get there yourself. I too used to think I am qualified, now give me my dream job, but you have to learn and earn....the most wonderful experience I ever had in work life was when I helped people at one of the legal services as part of my desire to get in to a great law firm. I didn't realise until I was there a while that I didn't want the S&G gig, but I really wanted to help people who had issues. So I didn't go ahead with my articles and thought social work was the answer. But that just made me depressed. Not because of the customers but because of the colleagues!!

So I threw it all away and decided to do something completely different and got in to the entertainment world. Not much different to being a barrister, however a lot less headaches to take home. And now I sell software, go figure, as one of my many talents. But I learnt everything about my current job, on the job. Watching and listenning to great people who were high achievers and very successful. I had no problem being humble in my lack of knowledge at all.

When post grads come in for an interview with me now, if our company has a post, it is standard for them to meet senior level management, I ask some simple questions. Why do you want to work here and given ten million dollars, what job would you really be applying for today ?It gets some interesting answers. And yes of course I ask a load of other more apt questions.

Most of the courses taught at uni when I went through and when my hubby went through a few years ago give a sample and a flavour of an industry or a job function. You have to learn from great mentors and experienced people how to perform the daily functions of a job in the real world. A scientist usually runs lab reports for the first few years, a doctor has to do their residency for a year or so and a lawyer needs to do articles and then be baby sat for years before getting their own work and clients. It's done for one reason only. Risk mitigation. On the job training. And in the main I am talking about post uni roles.

David. You may have realised my tone has changed toward you of recent. I was disappointed in you that you seemed to dismiss some assistance I offered and unbeknown to you, had done some work on for you but you gladly accepted offers from others. But looking back now, after seeing your comments on the another thread today, I get and understand why a little more. You see me as different to you, different opinions on subjects and older. You think that makes us different, which I am sure is true. But I think what the younger minds don't understand, is that sometimes us oldies do have some really good ideas or maybe contacts that just might get you something you just weren't expecting.
I hope this make sense. And please don't take offense, as I am merely outing my feelings after reading your post today. I feel it is important now to let the truth behind my reasons out. I think ones motives play an important role in understanding why we do and say some things. David I will pm you the deatils later if you wish to discuss further.

And if I may offer one other peice of advice. I helped a chap, who was homeless and severely disabled recently get a job in journalism. A cadetship with a major banner. I was working at the time with people who had severe issues in their lives, similar to this, who found it hard to get past the post. They though had the most wonderful attitudes to life and their ability to be able to try something they may fail at. You have taken on a role at Lots Wife, which is a brilliant entree into your chosen field. Any former Monash student now editor will hire you in a flash. But how you market yourself in general and how you respond to people may be the key to your success in truly finding a worthy role. Today I contacted another friend of mine who is a leading journo in this town about something else. It's dog eat dog but one thing you will learn to do in life is network and sometimes have to trade off the ideal for the path that just might lead you to your desired destiny. I admire this journos ethics and tenacity and have seen their career progress from coffee maker at the HWT, to a great name in their chosen field. What I am trying to say is, we do have to do some shitty jobs to get to where we want. Work and the dream role are a numbers game. But if you effectively develop a great network from your current areas of study, you will in time get that dream role.

I was also going to comment on NPMs question last week. But I was a little busy and had banned myself for a few days. Nick, if your heart is with money because it gets you somewhere in life then take the money for now. Who knows, out of that broking job where you might get your next opportunity. You may develop a relationship so strong with one of your clients, that they just throw the money at you as an investment. Stranger things have happened. And if your boss was saying they wanted you back because of the great work you did, then lay it on the line. Tell them you will come back, do the job but in 12 months you want to move in to a different area or be trained as a manager. There is nothing wrong with career mapping in a job interview. I havent caught up as yet with which way you went but no matter what you do, you have a great sense of humour, you will get what you desire in the end.

The above is neither a lecture nor a directive; however merely my 10 cents worth in what I have experienced in trying to get the career that gets me what I wanted...

[sq3]

Some very good points - David you do need to consider the field that you are going into and use that as a 'starting point'.

Some University faculties are very good and others way behind - IT is the prime example as the uni's are light years behind in what the technology is doing and therefore how to train/eduacte people in that field.

Other fields are fantastic and as PTD correctly pointed out a BA can open a lot of doors.

Don't be in a hurry to make your decision and always look for a vocation that you will enjoy going to work each day.

Good Luck mate.